If you don't have a catchphrase, let me suggest one
"Live for nothing, or die for something. Your call."
As a Christian, such a statement has a very specific connotation to me, but it's certainly a conversation-starter at the very least. You might have to Google the source (other than the Biblical overtones, obviously), and when you find it, you'll know one movie you might want to go see in January.
--Mike
538 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 538 of 538Jessica,
I deleted the long version after I posted it...suffice it to say that I did not intend to put words in your mouth and lets just leave it at that.
My rambling analogy got me to thinking...."just what does it have to do with anything anyway"....tangible, intangible whatever.
So I trashed it. If you can show me where tangible or intangible has anything to do with it...lets revive the discussion. Otherwise, I am not sure what I am discussing right now....
It looks as if cakes said it better than I did.
EZ,
first of all my favorite thing about you is that you also love to .... when you type.
In the particular case of Jacob, those consequences were quick in coming and I don't know that it would have been quickly apparent even to those nearby. Laban was so deceitful and conniving, I think he would have demanded everyone put on a happy face.
I am not saying there are never tangible consequences, just that that is what we prefer and we can't seem to comprehend it when there are not any.
In the "family" example lets play out this scenario- when you grow up and get to know your family members as adults, sometimes we are shocked to discover that our favorite aunt and uncle were actually married under scandal or your cousin loved another person who didn't love them. Basically, we see the family through the simple eyes of a child and as we get older we see the complexity of the situation.
I think that as SG grows, although he has been given this blessing (to be allowed and welcomed as pastor of BBC) we may see that the picture of him bouncing along on his merry way after this may not be what we assumed. We don't know what the long term consequences may be for his actions.
Legal obligations and stuff are not what I am talking about- we have to submit to the law but seeing as the issue at hand is not a legal one at this point I am only referring to the "other" consequences.
And Cakes,
yes, everyone can get in on this game- Legal consequences aside, if you screwed up I would grant you the same mercies.
EZ, sorry if I overreacted it just seemed if everyone was off on a tangent I didn't intend.
There has been a lot of talk about consequences and whether or not they are in the Bible. This story just got me thinking about it- it is such a good example of someone who was greatly blessed even when they messed up. And then you take Job, who lived such a "perfect" life yet suffered consequences he didn't not deserve.
That is what I wanted to discuss.
“Why is one man more important that all his potential victims; (No one ever said that.) and why can anyone credibly cite religious belief as an excuse? (No one said that)”
Hey, who are you talking to?
“I don't know much about the Bible, but I know it doesn't say I must have blind faith in Padre (I didn’t say that)”
Cakes, get this right, okay: What I said was I understand HOW Gaines made the mistake, not that it was right. What I don’t understand is PW and I don’t understand Watching History, who enjoys reliving it. I do understand how a pastor can get focused on ministering to a victimizer that he fails to protect past and potential victims.
“Anywho, I don't think a God who would shape a deeply complex mind, would have us throw out reason, logic, rhetoric, doubt and their tangential fields, when it is convenient to uppend our most cherished or embatteled pretexts”
No one asked you to give up reason, logic, rhetoric or doubt. I did say that from your world view it would be hard to understand how Dr. Gaines made his mistake. Which you have evidenced! Can you fathom that someone would understand something without agreeing with it?
Cakes: “Do you think the clergy abuse scandal in the Catholic church is up to God's Providence,”
No. But you will keep throwing stuff out there as if I did say that.
Cakes: “How about in any case, where facts are present, and judgements to be drawn from them?”
Ah, now this is it: Because it’s not for us to judge. I cannot hire or fire Gaines. I cannot discipline him spiritually. It’s not for me to judge. I can say he was wrong – and I can look at my own life and ministry and ask how I can avoid similar situations.
“Why is one man more important that all his potential victims; (No one ever said that.)
Didn't say you did; why would a pastor, based on a religious argument, not think about anyone's need but the confessed pedophile?
"and why can anyone credibly cite religious belief as an excuse? (No one said that)”
You just did--and further state that I couldn't understand, not being a Christian. I think I cannot give the poor notion much empathy, because it is repulsive to hide behind religious pieties on this. Listen to your brother in Christ EZ on this matter of which worldview is at play.
Hey, who are you talking to?
“I don't know much about the Bible, but I know it doesn't say I must have blind faith in Padre (I didn’t say that)”
Well, if you freely admit Padre made a horridous mistake, and accountability should be limited to just taking measure to handle it right the next time around, then you infer that folks should have trust in his integrity, contrary to the evidence that he acted more like a bump on a log than the involved, concerned individual you conjer.
"Cakes, get this right, okay: What I said was I understand HOW Gaines made the mistake, not that it was right. What I don’t understand is PW and I don’t understand Watching History, who enjoys reliving it. I do understand how a pastor can get focused on ministering to a victimizer that he fails to protect past and potential victims."
Well, that's too bad. For sixx months? Until the risk of threat?
“Anywho, I don't think a God who would shape a deeply complex mind, would have us throw out reason, logic, rhetoric, doubt and their tangential fields, when it is convenient to uppend our most cherished or embatteled pretexts”
No one asked you to give up reason, logic, rhetoric or doubt. I did say that from your world view it would be hard to understand how Dr. Gaines made his mistake. Which you have evidenced!
Oh, yes you do--like i said, the carnage of half-baked excuses for Padre's failure strewn over this thread attest to the gymnastic leaps of logic, gullibility and schoolyard tactics that folks will ezploit, if it suits their pretext.
"Can you fathom that someone would understand something without agreeing with it?" Can you fathom how seeing someone say how something is so horrible, looks hollow and lukewarm when no accountability for that so-called failure is just as staunchly asserted?
Cakes: “Do you think the clergy abuse scandal in the Catholic church is up to God's Providence,”
"No. But you will keep throwing stuff out there as if I did say that."
I didn't say you said it--I'm asking if you will take your own logic to its natural conclusion? Couldn't the Catholic church take the same religious accountability exemption that you apply to Padre, for all the coverups they've had to navigate?
Cakes: “How about in any case, where facts are present, and judgements to be drawn from them?”
"Ah, now this is it: Because it’s not for us to judge. I cannot hire or fire Gaines. I cannot discipline him spiritually. It’s not for me to judge. I can say he was wrong – and I can look at my own life and ministry and ask how I can avoid similar situations."
Now you're being cute. Haha.
Cakes,
There are probably mistakes made in the field of teaching (your field) that you would understand how they got made; while to me they would make no sense at all.
I understand how Gaines made the mistake. If someone explains it to you, you go a little nuts condemning religion as a crutch and an excuse and so on.
No one is using faith as a cover for sin. People of faith are likely to understand how other peole of faith might fall into certain temptations, wrongs or sins.
I don't think Dr. Gaines was silent for his personal gain. I think he was silent because he misunderstood the laws concerning a confession.
(And Mike, I was a "Christian" for 20 years, so I'll draw from whatever history I darn well please, if you don't mind, sir.)
No, actually, you weren't, not really. We've had this discussion before, and you simply don't have that card in your deck to play.
If you were a church member twenty years ago, that's one thing, but it is physically impossible to have been a Christian in the past and not be one today. The Bible objectively says that your options are these:
1) You made a genuine profession of faith in Christ then, which means you're still a Christian today--but one who is woefully out of fellowship with God (as if there's any other way to describe being out of fellowship with Him...). Or,
2) You were not genuine in any profession you made in the past, which allows you to say you're not a Christian today--because you were never one in the first place.
There is no third option. I know it makes your soapbox much less sturdy, but it can't be helped. There's no faux-superior "I used to be a Christian until I wised up" stance available to you.
Again, "Live for nothing, or die for something." Those of us who are Christians are people who have, already, died for something. Or, to be more precise, with Someone.
Galatians 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
--Mike
WHS,
I have always respectfully disagreed with you. The quotation above is from David, the preacher, and I don't claim it or condone it.
Mike,
I'm ahead of you, I didn't say I was a Christian, I said I a "Christians," the twinkles anticipating the theology you state and of which I'm all too familiar, having been a "Christian" for 20 years.
But thanks for checking in, daddy.
"I don't think Dr. Gaines was silent for his personal gain. I think he was silent because he misunderstood the laws concerning a confession."
So you disagree with leadership's assessment--or does incuriosity equal concern the way an apology or consequences equal accountability?
You have a lot of faith in the man, but again, you only look desperate trying to soft pedal an image of Padre that doesn't jive with the facts.
Jessica,
Ok, now I got it..... ..... .....:)
Thanks for the clarification. And yes, I totally agree with you on that. And that is a theme repeated again and again. Unusual people, unworthy people all down through history being used by God to do his will.
I met a retired baptist preacher one day and we were discussing more or less the same thing. He said "just look at Abraham, he wasn't reallly anything special".
That got me to thinking about how he had lied and put Sarah at risk, coward...on and on. But the defining moment was his act of faith. That sure puts a new spin on "author and finisher of my faith". And when we look at it that way, we start to be able to see what sets us apart, makes us a chosen people, and I think that is the faith He gives us and the faith He works in us...
I mean, what really makes us different from Jacob, Abraham, Solomon, Saul..on and on. Nothing really. Only the desire to walk humbly before our God seperates us from walking in rebellion to the same God and that is a desire we get from him or we don't.
In the end, it is how we respond to Him that makes the difference. Do we harden our heart and do what we want in the face of all the adversity He puts in front of us? That is the American way right?
Or do we soften that heart and seek to change the way we act, the way we talk and the way we treat people.
Gaines, me, you, any of us are not doing anything that hasn't been done many times over by other peoples and nations. But what is supposed to make us different is our heart. When our leaders harden theirs, we harden ours and the thing just spirals out of control. But at the end of the day, it was all caused by a hard heart. Or a lot of them.
Now the real question is what do we do now? Do we just keep plowing down the road claiming to do God's work.... or do we check up, slow down and start asking Him to do His work in us... the same way He did in Jacob, Arbraham, the Apostles, Disciples...on and on.
Just some thoughts. Thanks for the discussion!
David,
"Ah, now this is it: Because it’s not for us to judge. I cannot hire or fire Gaines. I cannot discipline him spiritually. It’s not for me to judge. I can say he was wrong – and I can look at my own life and ministry and ask how I can avoid similar situations."
Now that, I guess, is where we just disagree.
The mistake(one among many)...and it was a huge one...that Israel committed in the first place was having to have a king. That set in motion decades of kings, rulers, monarchy that at very few times actually followed God. David, Solomon and Josiah were the exceptions rather than the rule. Most of the rest of them committed all sorts of evil.
That was a system of follow the leader, no matter where he goes. No judgement, no discernment and no consequences...from within anyway.
Now today, we are supposed to have a church. All members part of the body, each with a funtion.
Church disciplne and a system of governance that should allow the whole body to dwell in peace, worshipping God. We should judge ourselves, leaders and other members by the WORD. How else will we ever be able to spot the ravenous wolf among us? Today, we have been so beat down, and beat up that we just accept "judge not lest we be judged" as meaning that we just don't question anything and we just go where the boss tells us. That didn't work out for Israel. It won't and can't work out any better for us. The only thing that is going to work is to be the body with one Head.
The Authority has to be the WORD. And if we can't judge ourselves by the WORD and execute adjustments, discipline those that would do great harm to the body what happens? I bet satan just loves it when we don't have the knowledge from the WORD and the strength nor the conviction to cary it out.
We have seen time and again, even here on the blogs, errors made and corrected. Judgements made and the WORD applied. Don't you find it odd that it is easier to do here...among the body...than it is in church?
The thing we have to wonder is if there is anyone around that knows the WORD well enough to do what is needed...and the conviction to cary it out.
I just read 2 Kings 23 this morning. Man, we need what they did. Only...who is going to find the book? And who is going to institute the reforms needed?
"There are probably mistakes made in the field of teaching (your field) that you would understand how they got made; while to me they would make no sense at all."
No, not when it comes to the safety of children or percieving real accountability. You seem to want to mitigate Padre's mistake by claiming ignorance of the law.
I've already answered this lame excuse. My relative position, relationship or stature would no have any bearing on taking the right course of action.
Look, it's condescending to say that I would have to be a Christian to understand your nuances. Balogny. I'm not a Catholic, but I know when those leaders are blowing smoke.
Being a pastor doesn't get you a sidestep-accountability-card; if anything, it means you have a greater responsibility to not sabotage trust with your flock.
Cakes: “No, not when it comes to the safety of children”
I have a friend who had 30 kids in her classroom. She was walking them across the grounds. One slipped away. The teacher lost her job. Was she wrong? Yes. Can you see how it happened?
It is unfortunate that EZ and Cakes take my saying I understand how something happened as my approval that it happened. But go on along those lines if it makes you feel good. But cakes, you have no right to point out your precieved "self-righteousness" in ohters when you can't imagine you would ever ever make a mistake. Watch out, Pride comes before...
And you're right. Being a pastor does hold us to a HIGHER accountability. So again, you are building a straw man with things I never said.
cakes: "Look, it's condescending to say that I would have to be a Christian to understand your nuances."
That's not quite what I was saying, however if you had been a Believer for 20 years you would have understanding of "The Holy Spirit" who searches the "deep things of God." Our understanding comes from not only logic and reason but from revelation.
Jesus opened the Disciples minds to the Scriptures sothey would see the nuances.
What I actually was saying, though, was that you need to understand the power of redemption to fully grasp why a pastor might focus so totally on the victimizer. But you will take this to mean I think that was a right approach: It was not.
EZ: "Today, we have been so beat down, and beat up that we just accept "judge not lest we be judged" as meaning that we just don't question anything and we just go where the boss tells us."
EZ, I'm not a member of Bellevue to judge him. Are you? And I'm not God. So what can I take away from this... what I can learn and apply to ministry.
I've been in church meetings where we removed members (ever been in one of those?) and had people throw "judge not" at me. Only thing: That was actually the time to judge! Paul says the church will one day judge the angels. Hwoever, hate to break this to you, we have no power over Dr. Gaines.
If you only stand back and toss stones and never say: "What about me, Lord" then you are doing the kind of judging the Scriptures prohibit. You are standing above him declaring yourself better -- thinking you could never make that kind of mistake. (Like Mr. cakes).
No David,
I fully acknowledge that you'd like to hold the position that it is a horrible failure; but I also acknowledge that your lack of vociferousness in demanding accountability and supporting situational ethics (tehe) undermines the assertion of your outrage at the failure.
Your "reasoning" sounds like real cheap grace, and convenient for Padre I might add.
Grace is only cheap when you don't understand what was paid.
I never said boo about grace, forgiveness, etc FOR Dr. Gaines. I said I understand HIS desire to show Grace, though is was wrong.
David,
As some rather eloquent people have been known to say:
Back on up now...Don't put words in my mouth.
"It is unfortunate that EZ and Cakes take my saying I understand how something happened as my approval that it happened."
I never suggested you aprove of what happened. And I understand your reasoning that the "mistake" was made because Gaines focused his attention on redeeming PW.
But like I asked before. At what point...when in the six months that followed did he turn his attention to protecting the flock?
He never did. He maintained even then that PW should keep his job if it were up to him. We are not talking about a mistake regardles how bad folks want to make it that. We are talking about a decision made and stuck with through the following 6 months and still defended then...to deny justice, deny judgement and deny discipline. I don't know how you get PW "reconciled to the body without any of that....Was Paul wasting his time when he wrote that stuff? What about Matthew?
David, Cakes and EZ:
I have watched your conversations about accountability concerning Dr. Gaines. I guess and I am more concerned about credibility. Please let me explain.
When I first started working with SNAP, I used to make the comment that I am sure glad that MY church (Bellevue) would not act like the Catholic Church. I told them we followed the Bible and we would not stand for one second in making excuses for a pedophile. Trust me they thought I was stupid and just plain ignorant. You know what, they were right, sadly.
When I first found out there was a pedophile minister that was allowed to remain on staff for at least 6 months I was outraged. I wondered how in the world ANYONE could be so stupid and flat turn their back on what God’s Word tells us. Then as I got more into it, I saw that not only the Senior Pastor but his newly hired Assistant Pastor were ignorant and making excuses for their screw-up. Dr. Gaines for not reporting it when he first became aware and David Coombs for saying he did not know if there was anything to report. Both of these men were willing to accept the words of a pedophile and ignore what common sense says. Forget what the Word of God says. It was obvious they were going to ignore it. Suddenly my own home church was acting just like the administrators of the Catholic Church where they were willing to show more compassion for the pedophile. I was so sickened and grieved. How could they do this?
It amazed me that Dr. Gaines would think that an admitted (forgiven) pedophile minister would be more fit for service at Bellevue than I just a sinful (forgiven) but DIVORCED husband who was unfit to serve as a deacon. Talk about twist theology.
We as victims do have issues with trust. And now they ask us to trust them again. I don’t think so. That was one screw-up too much with our children at risk.
As a SNAP coordinator and also a victim I find their behavior/actions beyond defensible.
So you guys can argue accountability all you want but to me and many other victims is about credibility and in that respect they have none.
David Brown
SNAP coordinator for Memphis/West Tennessee
EZ: "But like I asked before. At what point...when in the six months that followed did he turn his attention to protecting the flock?"
I don't know. I'm not him. I don't answer for him.
I do wish you would understand my question is not really about Bellevue. It's about US. You can get so caught up in declaring someone wrong in a situation you can do nothing about that you miss the opportunity to examine yourself and the situations you are in.
Get what Mr. Brown said? To a victim, there is no second chance. So get it right the first time. How you gonna do that? How about by making a plan (and yes, putting policy in place) ahead of time.
Mr. Brown,
I hold no hope for accountability at Bellevue, for exactly the clintonian excuses on display here. But children were not the only victims here. Some few thousand people, stakeholders in their own church have their well-founded doubts about the pastor's integrity and fitness. But while the Pastor gets an easy out from these folks who are so outraged by a blog entry.
Credibility is derived from a process of restoration that serves all stakeholders, not the folks with the cushy position and salary. I got on this thread when these folks were toying with the anomimity jag and outting someone who doesn't need to suffer any more at the hands of these Gaines apologists. I've been concurring with what you just said for days--no one can claim confusion about the law to defend not doing jack.
It's like people here want to deny the obvious, and sugar coat the indefencable (not just the failure, but the contrivances--recounted ad nauseum--to sidestep accountability, including yours, David) with Christian piety. It is not me who cheapens grace by such ridiculous, clintonian circumstantial ethics, it is the ones who supposedly believe in it.
Good men in high places have been arguing much the same since the scandal broke--Spradlin, the FOTF dude, Bellevue deacons, dedicated members--people that share you'all faith. Yet, David seems to question my ability to come to the same conclusion as these, because I joyfully follow the diamond path.
I don't think the Christian religion is alone in asserting these kinds of lame excuses, because the fact is, I saw the same contrivances at play in my own Sangha, when we had our own fracture due to a sex scandal. Religious leaders often play the religion card when they don't have justifications otherwise.
Now, as then, I won't let the pious pour water down my back and tell me it's raining. I was as resolved in my criticisms of my own teacher, and as a consequence found myself a refugee from fellowship just like the truthseekers when I didn't cow tow to religion-speak in the service of goading loyalty to authority that doesn't deserve it.
This is a universal problem in religious institutions, and so are the credulous, unfortunately.
Pastor David: There was a policy in place. It was revised in 2001. Some chose not to follow it. Not being aware of it is not a valid excuse, you ask.
Trust me no one and that includes me ever wanted to believe it would be handled the way it was. That is what hurt so many victims that are members of Bellevue. Even those that weren't. Of all the churches in the SBC, this is the one church that set the standards. It hurt so many people and still does. It will take a long time to recover
Let me ask you this? What do you do with a member who has admitted to you as a Pastor he is a pedophile? This is not to trap you. My pastor asked me this recently.
My response after talking to my peers with SNAP was this: you assign a Deacon to him and be sure security has a photo of him. And you never allow that man to go anywhere alone in the building, that includes the restroom. I suggested he he swap out Deacons so they do not become too trusting of this man.
But what do you do if you are a small church, no security? I think that is your situation. I know it is not easy. And my prayers are with you and other pastors.
David Brown
"It is not me who cheapens grace by such ridiculous, clintonian circumstantial ethics, it is the ones who supposedly believe in it."
So asking: How can I protect children in my congregation is "clintonian." While you stand back and say you could never make a mistake. and you call Christians "pious."
Nope, soft-pedaling excuses for the pastor's egregious behavior with situational ethics (which I thought you folk's eschewed) and his continued function as a "trustworthy" pastor is clintonian, so to being blind to the contrivances of the leadership's PR campaign, as opposed to a process that would inculcate real healing and accountability in the aftermath--and for all its stakeholders--is clintonian.
But I already said that.
Still claiming Mr. Brown's perspective, are you? Tehe!
Oh, I make mistakes; I can just say with absolute clarity that I wouldn't make this mistake.
Cakes,
"his continued function as a "trustworthy" pastor is clintonian"
You actually put "trustworthy" in quotes when that is NOT what I said. I never said Gaines was or was not trustworthy.
I said I understood how he sinned and failed to report. and by understand that I can see how I could commit the same sin if not on guard.
There's a story about Logeye and the Sawdust kid. Don't pick at sawdust when there's a log in your eye. Everyone likes the story until we realize we might be the ones with logs in our eyes. So you can say with absolutes that you would never make such a mistake. Me -- I'm checking my eye.
David,
" Hwoever, hate to break this to you, we have no power over Dr. Gaines."
Why not? You are a member of the same body that I am, right?
Israel's history is full of leaders that sold them into captivity and led them to destruction. Why do we have to be like that? No one those days questioned the king. Is our outcome going to be any different if we just blindly follow leadership that appears determined to emasculate the WORD and turn him into man's idea of what a god ought to be?
Or find out who he is? And obey Him.
If you make a bigger issue of the actions of his critics, which is all over this blog, seek to deflect any outward manifestation of accountability for the one who made such an egregious failure (and soften it with unfounded assertions that ammount to situational ethics--he was on top of things, just ignorant of the law), and then try to call a change in church policy "accountability," then I'm in my element to assume you think he is a trustworthy pastor. After all, he was just trying to be a good pastor to the pedophile, not asleep at the wheel. That's real faith, bro.
Look, Mr Brown, myself and EZ have been in agreement that such stances are, again, wishful thinking and presumes motivations of the pastor that doesn't jive with the evidence, from the time the scandal broke to every contrivance played since.
If you believed he had spent his credibility, an outspoken person as yourself woyuld say so, and you wouldn't fight his critics with such swiss-cheese arguments.
Look David,
In the end, you have the upper hand, because you're a Christian and I'm not. That means your words have more credibility and mine have none, no matter the compelling content, or lack thereof, of either.
It's just another benefit of being on the right team.
I often think of that toothpick/ 2x4 analogy wwhen I read the attacks coming from the Bratton Report, dude.
cakes: "I'm in my element to assume you think he is a trustworthy pastor"
You are in your element to assume whatever you want. Don't turn your assumptions into quotes and pin it on me. Stand beside your own assumptions.
Cakes: "I often think of that toothpick/ 2x4 analogy wwhen I read the attacks coming from the Bratton Report, dude."
I'm not telling THEM they have a log. I'm saying each of US (you and me, Cakes -- think about it "dude") should examine our roles to see if there is anywhere children are not fully protected.
We just spent about 20k on moving a playground because I was convicted it was in a location where we could not see what was happening. So we built a new playground in the center court where it can be seen from all our buildings and anyone can be aware of what's happening.
But it takes asking questions. Hey, where are children not safe on this property. Or in the role I serve in. I'm just asking you to stop and think --
Did Dr Gaines destroy his credibility or not? Are the thousand of folks, ministers, deacons and otherwise, put out on the street--because they wouldn't swallow and follow--the culprits or not?
I'm well aware of the "we learned from our mistake and now we're moving on" folks at Bellevue and elsewhere. It's just that such declarations of staunch resolutions that we avoy what a horrible failure it is, seems like milquetoast pandering while soft-pedaling some lame excuse for it and drawing some unfounded conclusions about the highest motivations of the pastor.
Based on the real evidence, I think EZ points at the more likely motivations.
When you finish your book, google Occum's Razor, my friend.
David,
We keep hearing policy and prevention....AS David Brown has stated, there was a policy in place. IF that were not enough, 1 Cor 5 was written a good bit prior to that and it is heard to be inspired writing...
Let me ask you and any other seminary trained pastor out there willing to comment....What are you taught in seminary? This is not a trick question. Are ther any courses where you are instructed in what to do if you have sexual sin rear it's ugly head among your staff members?
We can write a new policy to prevent the same exact thing from happening in the future. Or at least we think we can. But there will always be just a little difference, something outside the current policy that rather than prevent the incident actually winds up providing the escape clause for it. Because we can always argue then that the policy wasn't explicitly for that problem and that is why I didn't know what to do....
David Brown,
It really is all about credibility isn't it? We can sit and wrangle, haggle and beat this till the horse just melts into the muck but none of that is likeley to restore credibility is it?
At one point, proper handling, proper accountability and leadership willing to do what it took to minister to ALL the victims, execute judgement, provide justice to all
and protect the flock may have gone a long way to restore some of that credibility.
EZ: So correct. They blinked. Lawyered up and the rest is history. Might have made a liability carrier happy but did nothing for some very hurting souls. Try telling me that was Biblical.
And you are right. They still had a chance but when they shut the door on the victim it was over. And when they did that, there went their credibility. Maybe forever.
There are no winners here.
David Brown
EZ: "Let me ask you and any other seminary trained pastor out there willing to comment....What are you taught in seminary? This is not a trick question. Are ther any courses where you are instructed in what to do if you have sexual sin rear it's ugly head among your staff members?"
No, we were not.
But didn't graduate. By the time I got to seminary I was already burned out on religion from our Christian University. (SBC University). But I do not recall such a class being offered at the seminary.
In "Christian Studies" we were taught Moses didn't write the first 5 books. We were taught Jonah is a metaphore. We were taught stuff Mr. Cakes would have felt very at home with. We were taught a system of udnerstanding Genesis -- Deuteronomy called "JEPD." We were taught the devil isn't real. We were taught Isaiah was really written by 3 authors. We were taught that "vergin" means young lady.
Somehow they never got to practical stuff. Sorry.
And by the way, if you have people teaching you lies -- maybe it's better they not touch serious issues or you might "throw the baby out with the bathwater."
Anyway, Baptist life has changed since then, so maybe they are covering stuff like that. When i went it was a lot of liberal thinking that in my opinion was garbage.
Mr. Brown,
I am a Vajrayana buddhist, so I know we are on divergent paths, but are you aware of some of the other clergy-type abuse that has occured in other religious traditions? There are various websites dedicated to exposing these individuals and coverups as well.
Some teach that it is forbidden to speak critically of a Lama, and doing so supercedes intervention. My former teacher said it was "our karma together," another way of saying, man meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." Most of the Sangha bought it.
I think what is most unfortunate is just how credulous one has to be to absolutely disengage from common sense, and embroider the most tenuous of justification. If that one is shot down, then the pretext demands that another is just around the bend. And if they're all shot down, then claim God (or Dharma, or whatever) is on your side.
I respect all faiths and I hope nothing I've said offends. Merry Christmas.
EZ: "Are ther any courses where you are instructed in what to do if you have sexual sin rear it's ugly head among your staff members?"
No. But I've stuck with Matthew 18 and 1 Cor. 5.
Cakes, "seems like milquetoast pandering while soft-pedaling some lame excuse for it and drawing some unfounded conclusions about the highest motivations of the pastor."
I did a lot more than "pondering" Mr Cakes. I led the church to spend 20k to move a playground because it endangered children. So I'm not suggesting some mental exercise.
I am saying that if you don't understand HOW someone made a mistake, what logic they used (even what theology they used) you may find yourself committing the same sin.
David,
Are you calling me a liberal; is that to what we're reduced? No, like I said, I'm a buddhist, so I wouldn't be at home in a Baptist seminary, but dig taken.
Still, with that hearty dip into situational ethics on Gaines' behalf, I thought you were the liberal on this thread.
Who knew?
Actually, Cakes, you're the one who earlier called the Scriptures "fairy tales."
So yes, you would have felt very comfortable in the classes I took with professors who also believed they were fairy tales. You take my seeing the commonality between you and them as a "dig." I thought you might want to enroll. Just trying to be helpful.
Cakes: Oh I am aware there are many other faiths that are suffering the same problems we are discussing here. No faith or method of worship is immune.
That is what is so hard. We want to believe in something. That is just part of us and when that leader/minister/priest/pastor/padre betrays us. Ouch!
And if that hurt/betrayal is not enough, we find their employers are slow to react. If they react at all. And that really tears a victim apart. And in some cases forever harmed. Now where do they turn for help? They want so bad to be able to go their church but they can't.
And for those that would say just give it all to Jesus, wait. Oh how I wish I could share Him with some victims. But they are not ready for that. I know He does work but they don't. They don't trust Him.
All I can do is try to let them see the hope I have found. And in those cases, actions speak so much more than words.
But we are talking about victims about clery abuse. What about those that were sexually abused but not by clergy. Same thing applies to them too. Same needs, same trust issues.
Folks it is all around us but the more we discuss it, the more light is shed and pedophilia loses. Our children win.
David Brown
David,
Nor do I want to understand how anyone couldn't have grasped the risky potentialities--ignorance of the law is not an excuse that addresses the deficit of, you know, common-horse-sense, palpable to anyone with an functional IQ, much less a so-called religious leader.
Don't keep telling me I don't know what I'd do in this circumstance. This very well is an ever present part of my job description, but were it not, it would have no bearing in my doing the right thing.
You believe anything you want dude.
Peace out.
Well again,
You seem to go for some long yarns yourself, so what did you have against the class?
Mr. Brown,
I know. I was a lot like these folks over at NBBCOF--had the rug pulled out from under me and i was just on my own. I know folks here would like to think these refugees can join another church, but they've got serious trust issues too, with good reason.
It took a few years, but ultimately, it made me a stronger person, and independent from relying on others in my spiritual walk. I fellowship with a small group now and it is just fine.
Cakes: "You seem to go for some long yarns yourself, so what did you have against the class?"
You are always so kind.
what I have against the class:
1. I do not think it took hundreds of years to form the first 5 books.
2. I don't buy "JEPD." (Extreme multiple authorship of Genesis -- Deuteronomy).
3. I do believe there is a devil.
4. I believe Jonah actually happened.
5. I believe Jesus was born from a virgin -- meaning she hadn't previously had sexual union with a man.
You want to use those convictions as a new bat? Swing away, Cakes.
David,
I thought that is what I had read about you and that, frankly, is why I have so much hope for you.
I have an uncle, ordained Baptist minsister that went to Criswell? in Dallas and had much the same experience. Said it got to the point he was crying every day when he left class it was so bad. Like you, he left early...
What we seem to have lining up is not unlike what we had in the OT. The religious establishment has gone the way of compromise and sold out...Then we have a few, outside the establishment sounding the warning...
Faithful ministers like yourself that desperately seek to do God's will, get thrown under the bus of our own pharisees and scribes every day. Don't be too eager to defend them, or be like them. Or be part of the club. Obey the WORD.
That is why I decided to read the Word, not just casually but in depth and keep reading it until I get answers. More or less my own personal wrestling match. I just hope to avoid the limp...
Some, like watchinghisstory, like to claim some mistical, special revelation or special training to be able to properly divide the Word. I think you call it exegete?
But in reality and from my own experience the only things required are a copy of the WORD in your favorite translation (not paraphrase) some time and a willingness to learn. And the Holy Spirit. The Teacher.
He moves in the day we are saved. And doesn't leave. I don't believe in "many fillings" stuff...sounds like a pentecostal..He abides in us and we abide in Him. Permanently. We might get to a point that we won't listen to him...but that doesn't mean that He isn't there.
And along the way we run into some interesting people. With similar experiences. Funny how when we start getting off track or dreaming up something stupid, the Holy Spirit always brings someone across our path to correct us. If we haven't hardened our heads and hearts to the point we won't listen anymore.
Keep the faith and best wishes to you as you lead your flock. May the God we know bless your efforts with a fruitfulness and security beyond all you ever dreamed.
By the way...challenge your flock to read the WORD. Personally and daily. They are in this with you and it will take all of you to stand against the evil that comes. A house divided cannot stand.
David,
It was joke and I know you're not a liberal.
I bet, at heart, you're the kindest person.
>;v}>
I think the proper term is "exegesis," for an expositional interpretation of a text.
David,
You had asked if I am a member of BBC.
The answer is yes. Why, you ask have I not joined another church?
Cakes says it pretty well here.
"I know. I was a lot like these folks over at NBBCOF--had the rug pulled out from under me and i was just on my own. I know folks here would like to think these refugees can join another church, but they've got serious trust issues too, with good reason."
I feel like damaged goods every time I tell anyone about being from BBC. I have visited a lot. Still visit one regularly. (Every Sunday) one of the deacons, keeps asking me why I don't join....
Maybe it all comes down to just scared that I might mess them up...or they might mess me up...
I am sort of opinionated...and it is getting worse the more I read.
Cakes,
Thanks for clearing that up:)
"t'mater" or or just "mater"?
I like t'mater.
Do you know about the etymology of the term "moot?" Apparently it has a meaning that is the direct opposite of its original usage.
"The adjective moot is originally a legal term going back to the mid-16th century. It derives from the noun moot, in its sense of a hypothetical case argued as an exercise by law students. Consequently, a moot question is one that is arguable or open to debate. But in the mid-19th century people also began to look at the hypothetical side of moot as its essential meaning, and they started to use the word to mean "of no significance or relevance." Thus, a moot point, however debatable, is one that has no practical value."
Cakes,
right after you get my blood all boiled up your nice and sweet to me. gosh, I'm becoming Bi-Polar here. Lots of love youward, also.
EZ,
"Maybe it all comes down to just scared that I might mess them up...or they might mess me up..."
Man, don't worry. You'll mess them up! Of course you will. And they'll mess you up.
But if God is in it, ultimately you'll help them more than you'll mess them up. We all bring strengths and weaknesses to the table. God uses those in the body. (I'm teaching Romans 12 tomorrow night... check it out).
Anyway, your fears are true-- but not to the proportion they play on your emotions. Yes, human relationships do cause pain. And yes, we will mess each other up. But when God is in it the power that comes out of it is much greater than any mess.
Stay true to the Word.
Cakes, you must have missed my earlier question to you yesterday, so I will ask again:
you said you were a Christian for 20 years...
Does that mean that at some time in your life you accepted jesus as your savior??
What happened to make you stop being a Christian, and how did you stop being a Christian??
Serious question...
Cakes,
Well then...in remaining true to the original meaning, you will find this bit of trivia moot. But not too moot because there is much archeological evidence to support it...so, maybe not so moot. You be sure and let me know. Moot or not moot.
In 2 Kings chapter 17 in the bible (don't mater which one), we are told that Samaria is repopulated with foreigners. At one point it was the capitol city of the kingdom of Israel, was raided/crushed/sacked by the king of Assyria because they committed all sorts of evil and did not worship God.
Then he repopulated the land with all foreigners...and they eventually wound up worshipping God and other gods as well. Another no-no.
See details here
The real question... "have the people of Samaria been replaced again, the foreigners replaced by Israel's Jews and when did it happen?" (no trick question, I don't know)
Cause if it hasn't happened....there are a whole lot of TV vanglists/prophets telling us these days just how protected and how special Israel is.....and almost 1/2 of it might still be a bunch of foreigners, worshipping God and other gods. (2 Kings 17:41) tells us they are still there. And if they are....How special is the Israel we know today? In God's eyes?
You like puzzels and hard evidence don't you cakes? Take a look at the link and then read 2 Kings 17 when you get a chance. Maybe you can help me sort it out.
By the way, anybody else with the answers just chime right in. I really want to know.
EZ,
Heck if I know. I'm sort of the mind that any people are foriegners on whatever piece of real estate at some juncture.
This sounds likr a theological argument I have no business touching, lest I inflame another visit from daddy.
Yeah Memphis,
I'll let others conjecture whether I was really redeemed or not, based upon their theology.
I know I said I was done reading/posting on these blogs but I had to post after the events of this evening. I took my children to the Tree tonite. Prior to the show we went to a local coffee shop for a treat where I received an earful from an ex-Bellevue Bellevue-hater. After mentioning we were going to the Tree I gathered he was certain that nothing good could come from a Christmas program at that church. He didn't mention SG/PW or anyone in particular just the church itself. My 11 year old looked at me and rolled her eyes. My mistake was telling him we were no longer at Bellevue. I guess he assumed I was on his side now. Anyway, when I got to the tree I thought I better watch and listen attentively in case I needed to deprogram my children afterwards. There were some interesting observations. I got online as quick as I could to compare notes on the NewBBCNONopenforum site and interestingly enough I see New BBC Open Forum's observations and couldn't help but think that she must have slept through several pieces of the show(see her 11:10 Dec 10 post). I am shocked and disappointed that these were not mentioned:
1)The show started late because of a "bad wreck on the interstate". That's what they claimed but I know what they're thinking...last minute ticket sales!!! We know it's all about the money.
2)Mark Blair prayed to MARY'S son. Did he have to say Mary?? Is Bellevue Catholic now?
3)Zach Thomas talked about "Purpose". Man, Rick Warren has them right in his pocket!!
4)Steve Gaines said "I'm not God". I thought that was a weak confession.
5)Lindsey Gaines was actually in the tree row five, third spot from the left. I think they really have a lot of nerve putting her in such a high profile spot. They should have given the spot to someone less fortunate.
6)The Tree lacked the high quality showmanship that were the trademark of Trees in the past. It's almost like just a bunch of normal folks were in the show and running the show. Disgusting. Memphis deserves better.
7)Ryan Wingo started playing his guitar and walking around like he was Eric Clapton or something. They need to get him under control.
***Just for WatchingHistory***
8)SG laid the Gospel down but then blew it when he said "Repent, Believe, Receive". I'm pretty sure that confused a bunch of lost people who cannot discern between Calvinism and Arminianism.
MERRY CHRISTMAS to all!
Just in case...it is sarcasm. (except the coffee shop story).
Cakes,
Really, no theology. Just history.
Cakes I would really like to hear what happened or why you made the change. Email if you would like.
What happened is a long a strange trip, but the short version is that I discovered I don't have to believe everything I've been taught; and I am more at home with a path that promotes compassion over rigid dogma.
I am quite comfortable accepting that there are some questions that cannot be answered definitively on this side of the veil, so why not focus on the questions I can.
Cakes, you seem like exactly the type of person that would focus on finding out the answers you do not know.
And that is not a dig either.
Watching,
It appears that you at least understand you are outside looking in. Keep reading. You may be delivered yet.
If you would quit relying on dreams and repent, turn to the Lord for healing and deliverance...
2 Cor 3:14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. 15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. 16 But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
Rather than asking for no suprises, ask for it to be removed.
Oh Memphis,
I'm all about finding the answers I do not know; I just have to hold some confidence that looking leads to definitive answers. The ambiguity of the God question sort of takes it off my radar. Looking at history, I don't find much support of divinity in such fixed beliefs and presumed moral supremacies, and I'm not just picking on Christians.
I'm just not going there again. Shakimuni Buddha said, don't take anyone's word--including his own--for the truth, but discover the truth for yourself. And yes, he was just a man; then he got old and died, just like I will. That's why he's so cool.
Thus my faux book title,
The Case for Buddha: A Cremitory Urn--haha.
The death in buddhism is supposed to be the ego, that conflicted state of conciousness driven by desire, hatred or bare-knuckled stupidity.
My reason says that if God is both omnipotent and just, then He certainly apprehends the ambiguity of faith--delivered second-hand in a swelling marketplace of competing religious beliefs--or he's going to condemn me for an endless eternity in hell if I happen to choose the wrong one or took the wrong holy book as gospel?
Such inquiries lead nowhere for me--to more ambiguity and subjective accounts, unless one surrenders to faith as a true believer. And if that be the case, then there's nothing to prove nor diprove.
WHS,
I am not as articulate as I'd like to be, but thanks; and don't sell yourself short.
I suppose I could take out an insurance policy as a profession of faith--just in case.
But it's just that kind of self-grasping modality that I eschew.
Watching,
Just more of the same deception and twisting. All to justify your "vision". About the last thing anyone needs is teaching from you. Remember, your the guy asking God to make sure there aren't any suprises waiting for you on the other side of the veil. The one that He removes when you turn to him. You don't have anything you can teach other than untruths and lies until He removes the veil.
Repent. Turn to Christ. The WORD. The Rock. The TRUTH.
You tell us,
"The activity of the Holy Spirit in the primitive assembly took a back seat to the body of Scripture. This was not what Christ had intended in John 16:12-15.
Let's look at it.
12 I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
Everything the Holy Spirit does and everything He speaks, He gets from the WORD. His authority comes from the WORD and everything He does and speaks glorifies the WORD.
For months now, we have heard you rant about your "vision". Who does this vision glorify? You? The WORD? The Holy Spirit? Then you attack the doctrine of Dr. Rogers. A man...just a man that through actions, and words...glorified the WORD. When he spoke, what did he speak of? What did he hold highest in his teaching? the WORD.....or the Holy Spirit?
The Holy Spirit is the Helper...John 16:7,
Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.
Now let's look back at 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
What is TRUTH?
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
So the Holy Spirit guides us into Jesus, the Way, the Truth, the Life.
Who is Jesus?
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Charles, sit down and quit teaching all this deception and all these lies. They are not from the WORD and the Holy Spirit is not teaching them to you.....
Ez,
Amen. Well said.
WHS,
Let me seek to engage your reason on this matter. Your speculations on the late pastor's knowledge has no bearing on anyone else's culpability for their own admitted, definitive, factual errors.
(This falls in line with that similar reasoning voiced here, inferring accountability for the padre's failure is negated because so many of the folks who seek it, a third party, are only exploiting the collossal failure to make him look bad.)
It is difficult to parse whether your speculations and differences are one of theology or the man's character, or some blurring of the two. You will come to no definitive, rock solid proof of the late pastor's culpability citing dreams; and no disrespect, but strangers don't put much stock in another's visions.
Peas out,
D.
watching,
Ah...now we begin the drift off to a protracted battle of the armenian vs the calvanist....
Those spirits just love to create confusion eh?
I tell you what, I will play along if you agree to one thing. You have to answer my questions. When you get to the point you won't answer, the game is over. Ok?
First question.
"Irresistible Grace - The grace that God extends to human beings to effect their election cannot be refused, since it has been decreed by God."
Based on the above statement (the I in TULIP) or the so called 4th point of calvanism....
What difference does it make what theology Dr Rogers had?
And so I don't get accused of a trick question, the point that I am making with the question is just what difference could anything he believed or anything he said would it have made if in fact, the only people that will be saved already are...and they can't resist His grace anyway. Then who cares what his theology is or was?
You have spent months arguing that by his error, people have been at risk of believing a lie. According to your belief (Bold, spirit filled calvinist) they will be saved if they are elect anyway. So why the concern?
Watching,
More lies and deception.
I don't agree with you on just about anything that comes out of your mouth or in this case anything you type on your computer.
Unlike you, I think Dr. Rogers had it pretty straight. You call it inconsistent Armenian or inconsistent Calvinism. There is a reason for that and if I could sit down with Dr Rogers this morning I am pretty sure the spirit within me would agree with the spirit within him.
Both (Calvinism and Armenians) are doctrines of man....both try to explain in human terms the absolute total mystery of God Almighty. And both fall short. But it sure makes the ruler of this world happy to see us fight over these and lash out at believers of these....rather than calmly show the error in each.
Now let’s get back to the question at hand. One more time.
"Irresistible Grace - The grace that God extends to human beings to effect their election cannot be refused, since it has been decreed by God."
Based on the above statement (the I in TULIP) or the so called 4th point of Calvinism....
What difference does it make what theology Dr Rogers had?
On the one hand you maintain that if you are elect (chosen) then there is nothing you can do to keep from being saved. Yet then you turn right back around and argue that a preacher can keep people from being saved by his doctrine. Either God is sovereign or he is not. Make up your mind.
You argue in support of the great commission then turn around and tell us that everyone that will be saved already is.....that is what predestined is all about right?
As it relates to brothers in Christ, we may be. But this brother is telling you that you are out of fellowship with him trapped in a delusion. You have stumbled and at risk of falling away if you haven't already. Take the hand I am extending and return to Christ. Repent.
Charles: Did you not say this: "Cakes, my vision is not for others but for me to believe and that has led me to understand that God in heaven is angry with Dr Rogers as well as all preachers preaching Roger's gospel. They hinder the work of the Holy Spirit. Roger's gospel has a strong mix of truth with self determination in salvation."
Why don't you take up your cause with one of those living Preachers then? Confront them. Why do you insist on picking on a dead man? I must say that is real brave.
David Brown
Watching,
Cakes, my vision is not for others but for me to believe and that has led me to understand that God in heaven is angry with Dr Rogers as well as all preachers preaching Roger's gospel. They hinder the work of the Holy Spirit. Roger's gospel has a strong mix of truth with self determination in salvation.
Charles, That is what I was talking about yesterday. You have a vision of God being angry with a man or men that preach a message of a stong mix of truth (praise God)and self determination.
Now I wonder (sarcasm) where in the WORD could he have gotten such an idea as self determination?
Could it have been by studying Israel and them dying in the wilderness for lack of belief? (Heb 3:12-19) Could it have been from studying Israel when they were crushed, when Jerusalem was crushed for being hard hearted, stiff necked and doing their own thing? (2 Kings 17:7-23)Are not these two very good pictures of self determination?
See, this is what Dr Rogers preached, or at least part of it. Self determination....
1 Cor 10: 1For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered over the desert.
6Now these things occurred as examples[a] to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry."[b] 8We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9We should not test the Lord, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.
11These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall! 13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
Don't tell me that his grace cannot be resisted. We have churches full of folks that do it every day. Just like Israel....
“He would have deceived thousands of souls, if not millions with his lies.”
A disagreement in a doctrinal matter that ultimately only God understands does not put those on the opposing “side” in the shoes of Liars.
Like it or not, Charles, the Bible doesn’t say everything we want to know about predestination and our will. We know we are chosen. Does that mean God chooses some to go to hell? Does that mean... any number of things – can you live with: We don’t know. We accept by faith that God is sovereign and in charge. We also know that sin is the result of man, not God.
You have decided that you can see beyond the veil and want no surprises. I think you’ll be surprised by how surprised you are when you get to that surprising place of surprises.
Theology is not as nice and neat as you would have it. It doesn’t fit our mold. You are calling a man of God a “liar” now and a “deceiver.” You should do what Mike asked you to do: Repent or stop posting.
Charles, will you follow Jesus?
Dear Charles: Please heed the advise of some very wise counsel you have been given recently.
When did you have this vision you speak so often about? I have done some homework. In the begining your posts were quite different.
Recently you attacked Pastor David calling him a drop out. What seminary did you attend? See I have found where you claimed to have been a pastor for over 13 years. You also claimed there was some sexual misconduct at your church. Why do you rail Dr. Rogers so badly for not knowing about Pw when even in your own church you did not know it was going on? Please explain why God would show you where Dr. Rogers was wrong for not being approachable and not knowing when you obviously did not know of the sexual sin going on in your own church? And it involved several men. You even had an someone stealing too?
You attack SOTL yet she praised you for one of you earlier posts. Where and when did you change? See there is no mention of the pie throwing thing in Mcminnville at that time.
In case you have forgoten, I am attaching them below.
WatchingHISstory said...
God is looking for simple witnesses not theologians. EE leaves the impression that you have to be a theologian.
I've spent the last year just walking up to anyone and simply say, "do you mind if I tell you something? Jesus is Lord and God and I am excited about that." I've repeated that phrase over 500 times to people since Jan 06 and the Holy Spirit takes over from there. It has opened the door to set down with about 20 people for a two or more hour conversation. I don't look to results I just am obedient to tell. The greatest result is that it has changed me!
7:59 AM, March 08, 2007
sickofthelies said...
WatchingHISstory said...
God is looking for simple witnesses not theologians. EE leaves the impression that you have to be a theologian.
I've spent the last year just walking up to anyone and simply say, "do you mind if I tell you something? Jesus is Lord and God and I am excited about that." I've repeated that phrase over 500 times to people since Jan 06 and the Holy Spirit takes over from there. It has opened the door to set down with about 20 people for a two or more hour conversation. I don't look to results I just am obedient to tell. The greatest result is that it has changed me!
7:59 AM, March 08, 2007
SOTL says:
A W E S O M E!!!!!!!
8:18 AM, March 08, 2007
WatchingHISstory said...
I have a dog in this fight, two dogs, actually.
Why am I lurking on this blog obsessively? Why am I interested in what is going on at Bellevue?
I too am a former pastor. I served for 13 years in a civilian ministry to the American military in Turkey, Italy and Germany. I moved to the Memphis area in 1981 and about 17 years ago I assumed an interim pastorate position. After only a month I discovered that the church clerk had been embezzling. ($40,000) This was a small church and was devastating.
I believed that this discovery was not just a coincidental event but was an act of God. I sensed an urgency to seek the Lord about this and before long There was a new discovery about sexual immorality. One woman had been having affairs with several of the men. I led the church in dealing with these situations. To my dismay the district pastor knew about this and had tried to cover it up. Sound familiar? We brought it to the open. Needless to say, I'm sure that we did not do everything appropriately. But what I did know was that the Holy Spirit was in the arrangements.
We established and restored intregity. We caught up financially with church finances.
These type problems are dealt with by spiritual measures. Bellevue is way out of my league and I'm sure that my comparisons are apples and oranges. But I am dismayed that this nasty situation could go on for so long at Bellevue and no one know about it. Or thoes who knew about it covered it up. I am not exalting myself, rather I exalt God, I had been at that church only a month. God tells men who care! Oh, Holy Spirit we need you!
9:29 PM, March 11, 2007
Charles I am begging you too to turn back to the person you showed us earlier. I too am concerned about where your vision has come from and what it has done to you. You are not the same person that was posting in late February and March 2007. Please come back home to Jesus. And Jesus alone.
David Brown
David Brown,
Many others have asked Charles to get help. He will not. He will only respond to his dog, Roscoe, from whom he gets his visions and advice from.
Now, if that isn't enough for someone to come get him, then I don't know what it takes. I'm not being a smart ass, this dude needs some serious help. Everyone here recognizes it except him.
I guess his wife and family don't see a problem. Or maybe they do, but aren't able to stop the madness. Maybe you can help.
He hasn't listened to anyone else.
Charles says:
I am more evangelistic than you all. I am bold, Spirit-filled and evangelistic.
Charles
Reply: It's sad. Over and over and over. He has claimed to be "Spirit filled". He has claimed to be "evangelistic". He has claimed to be "Calvinistic" But notice he never claims to be a Christian. Whattup wit dat?
Just sayin'.
oc.
Watching,
Game is over Watching. You won't answer the question. And I am not going to debate theology with an un-armed man.
I am more evangelistic than you all. I am bold, Spirit-filled and evangelistic.
Charles
Since you enjoy making it "about you"...
Charles, we know from your body of work that you are a pornographer and a liar. It's difficult to take you at your word as being either evangelistic or filled with (presumably) the Holy Spirit of God when there is a basic concern for the safety of those around you, particularly the safety of any children with whom you come into close contact.
And as OC has adroitly observed, your puffery with regard to your Calvinist leanings is at the exclusion of self-identification as a Christian.
You need to meet with either your pastor or a competent Christian counselor as soon as humanly possible, and lay before them your vile handiwork so that you might take steps to find the healing you desperately need.
And until you do that--among other things--you are not welcome to participate here. It's pitiable, yet telling, that you so easily violate other's rules and requests.
--Mike
"watching says".
I've probally witnessed to nearly 100 strangers and untold conversation. I work at the FedEx hub and all around me I see new evidence of God's power working in people's lives. That place is a hostile environment and God loves hostile environments. No, David nothing has changed.
oc says :
My brother works at the "hub" too.
He's a Christian. He doesn't make a big deal if he's a Calvinist or Armenianist, or a Charles Paginianist. He doesn't hide behind labels. He's just a Christian. And he says that the "hub" is a lot less hostile than the Hell's Angels and Banditos his big brother has confronted and witnessed to. Now what, Chucky? I don't think you have a clue about hostile environments.
Just sayin'.
oc.
And?
Watching,
Your rant has all the elements Paul discusses here. What is missing is the love. You persist in spewing hate and lies. Seeking to create confusion and sow discord....
I leave you with this to think on.
1 Tim 1 :1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope, 2 To Timothy, my true child in the faith:Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. 3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, 4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith. 5 The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.************* 6 Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.*********** 8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 in accordance with the glorious gospel of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted. 12 I thank him who has given me strength, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful, appointing me to his service, 13 though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, 14 and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. 16 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. 17 To the King of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. 18 This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, 20 among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
Hymenaeus, Alexander....Charles Page. Not good company Charles....
Repent Charles.
watching says:
mike
think maybe I could schedule an appointment with oc?
Would he be an improvement of my present counselor?
oc
Gender: Male
Industry: Non-Profit
Occupation: counselor
8:05 PM, December 14, 2007
oc says:
You wouldn't like it. I don't have time for nonsense and I don't put up with crap.
just sayin'.
oc.
oc says:
You wouldn't like it. I don't have time for nonsense and I don't put up with c***.
just sayin'.
oc.
Which is why I can think of no one better, OC.
--Mike
Gonna take that as a compliment, brother Mike.
Just sayin'.
oc.
watching said:
You will like me and I am sure I will like you. Then decide if I am nonsense. Who knows maybe my crap don't stink
oc says;
No, Watching. Your crap stinks to the high heavens. And those who belong to the Lord notice the disgusting stench of it all.
From your extensive history shown here just on this blog, I am quite sure that your crap stinks, no need to enquire anywhere else. And look at the responses of others. Haven't you not got it yet? Wherever you go, so goes the dung beetle.
To put it in the brief.
You have had a vision that is a little less worthy than dung, yet you smear it for months and request that everyone should praise it and like the aroma. I think it spiritual arrogance at least for you that you damn a dead man.
Maybe you should concentrate on personal holiness, instead of trying to damn one that is already cradled in the arms of the Almighty. Sounds pretty pitiful and useless for you to try to snatch him from the arms of the One who made the Heavens and the Earth, and the One who made you.
Some of the things you say sound like you are testifying that you are God. Maybe you should work on you, instead of others.
I think you have Fridays off too, don't you? That may be better for both of us. Be prepared to talk about "hostile environments".
Want to talk about the "biker" world?. I want to welcome you to the real world. And it ain't all about the big bad boys at the "hub". Or your fantasy world. It's about real hostility. Have you ever witnessed to someone at knife point?
Just sayin'.
oc.
Like I said, my brother works there. Yeah, it's fast paced, very, but it's not "hostile". I believe that you are not making the distinction. You sir, are a drama queen.
And, what does Pat Boone have to do with it? Have you shared the love of God in the midst of 4 or more Banditos while they cursed and threatened you and your God? What,Pat Boone came to the hub and proclaimed it a "hostile environment"? That is not a "hostile environment". Do you even know what are you talking about?
And no. Monday is not workable. Friday afternoon.
Moonbat Charles says,
I am a spokesman for God and HE works on me everyday! I want HIM to work on others.
Lynn's response:
Call me nuts here, but I don't think God neeeds a spokesman. He already has one. Thats the Holy Spirit.
OC,
You have the queen part right. Jezebel.
Jezebel, Lying, Deceiving, Deviant, Delusion, Error and now we have Confusion.
That is the way she works. You can't egage her in conversation, she won't answer your questions. She just throws up more questions, throws in anything to add confusion or redirect to another topic. When all else fails she will resort to intimidation and threats.
Look back over the yesterdays discussion and you will see it all.
Just remember, the objective is control.
Thanks EZ.
I'm wondering if I should deal with this dude at all. His descriptions of homosexual and pedophilic activity is so vivid, that I think he has had some experience in this area. The fact that he likes to invent and relate these 'activities' makes me sick.
And he talks about "hostile environments". Well, I won't get too graphic, but Charles, have you stood in the midst of the enemy while they produce a hunting knife and promise that you will never have anymore children. Get it? That's hostile. Not Fed Ex.
Just sayin'.
oc.
OC,
Acts 16, Mark 1, Mark 17.......
Ephesians 6:11-13
The real goal is to show unrighteousness. To get you drink from his cup of wrath. Just look at the wrath and anger flowing from his lips. Targeted at Dr. Rogers and anyone else he can get a rise out of...bitterness, anger an wrath.
If he can provoke you to match him word for word or deed for deed,,,,he wins.....because if you have Christ dwelling in you, you can never match the level of any of these that he is willing to go to....
And the delusion he is under is strong enough that he is convinced in his own mind that through it all, he is doing God's work....
If you do meet with him, you will get either intimidation or the sweetest guy you ever met...or both....Notice the accusation...and the paint....
2 Kings 9:30 When Jehu came to Jezreel, Jezebel heard of it. And she painted her eyes and adorned her head and looked out of the window. 31 And as Jehu entered the gate, she said, Is it peace, you Zimri, murderer of your master?
Remember Jezebel....she put on her makeup when she faced Jehu......there was a reason for that.
That is what he does when he meets with the pastors he has met with....I am sure he is real sweet with them and very convincing....but the final desire is control. If he can convince them he is doing God's work.....it strengthens his spirit.....
Jezebel.....that is why he can look so righteous and then get on the blog and say the things he does and do the things he does.....
EZ says:
If you do meet with him, you will get either intimidation or the sweetest guy you ever met...or both....Notice the accusation...and the paint....
oc says:
I won't get intimidation. I'm sure he will be sweet. I am very sure. And I'm not fooled by the paint.
Just sayin'.
oc.
Lynn,
Calling Charles a "moonbat" is probably not what God has in mind either.
All,
You don't have to agree with Charles, or like him, but we do have to love him and I am quite frankly a little tired of the way some people talk to him and about him. It is one thing to question his visions and speak to him about theology and challenge him on things we don't agree with. But calling him names and making jokes about his sanity is not appropriate.
I do wish he would heed everyone's words and stop posting until he fulfills his obligations to Mike. I think he is wrong about a lot of things, but if we have learned nothing from the past year let it be that we don't have the right to belittle those around us, regardless of the views they hold.
Junkster,
A coworker forwarded me a copy of your '12 days of Christmas'.
Do you think you could write one about some other church? I'd like to get into the holiday spirit too.
Jessica,
We do love him. That's why we want him to get help. I want you to research his "vision" and the sickening PW "moral lapse" and how Charles has been wallowing in it, and how he has enjoyed imagining the "act" in vivid detail, which he then spewed on this blog.
He then blames one who is in the Arms of the Almighty for all the mess, and is trying his best to make his heavenly bliss a hell. The dude is trying to storm Heaven using Hell. Do you think that's not sick?
And I don't care what it takes, the dude needs help. If it takes challenge, then ok. If it takes argument, then ok. If it takes name calling, then ok. This dude needs help, and I don't think you should cuddle him, lest you get some on you.
Just sayin'.
oc
"I am more evangelistic than you all."
Charles, did you know Jonah called an entire city to repentance, yet ended up miserable and out of tune with God's heart. That the Holy Spirit in his grace uses you is not evidence that there might not be some heart issues he wants to work on.
God uses us by his grace. We should not assume that because he uses us we are superior to anyone else.
Many here are not questioning you love for the lost, we are asking you to examine your heart and repent of some personal sins. Do not assume that because God uses you that he approves of everything in your heart.
All,
I am readying a book riddled with falsehoods by John Hagee. (a defense of Israel) I don't usually read him, but my brother in law said: "You've got to check this out." He actually claims Jesus is NOT the Messiah. Who is? Moses! This is some scary stuff rising up in the Christian community. Be careful.
OC,
No matter what, it does not take name calling.
Your frind the Sissy Pastor,
Cory
David,
Odd that you bring that up. Now.
I suggest that you read 2Kings 17, Zech 12:10 and all the references that go with it. It won't take long and might give you some important info as you read your book.
One huge missing link...missing piece of the puzzle in today's prediction and prophecy is that Christ has been left out of the prophecy...all the good days ahead for Israel happen after they acknowledge Christ....and they haven't done that yet.
Nothing has really changed in the nation of Israel as far as their religion is concerned since they crucified Jesus...
Hagee and a bunch of others are adding to the arrogance of Israel and convincing many that they are special....that they are decended from Abraham....no one acknowledges that they have been broken off....
Take a look at Zech 12:3 and think about who "carries" Israel today.
Jessica,
That is just what he wants you to do. Feel sorry for him....and it shows a big heart when you do. But when you boil it down, it is just more of the same thing we have been dealing with for months.
Somehow, we have been taught a picture of Christ as the gentle, would't hurt a flee, be nice to everyone sort of guy with a huge heart.
And so we should be willing to tolerate just about anything as long as a guy wears a "christian" label. That is just not biblical and to believe that, and let folks do whatever they want, act any way they want without speaking against it and acting against it puts us in a position much like we are in today. Just accept anything as long as we call it christian and do it out of "love" and claim His Grace to cover it.
King David was a man after God's own heart and fought evil all the days of his kingdom. Look back at the heading of this thread.
"Live for nothing, or die for something. Your call."
None of the original Disciples died because they just accepted anything that anyone wanted to do in the name of "religion" and because they were unwilling to contend for the faith. They died because they preached a message of repentance and submission to the King, obedience to the WORD.
Something else important to point out in the story of Jezebel. Her servants were eunuchs.....
She didn't want any men around to challenge her...
A man seeking to surround himself with spiritual eunuchs does more or less the same thing today.
oc said...
Gonna take that as a compliment, brother Mike.
As it was meant, brother.
--Mike
Corey said:
OC,
No matter what, it does not take name calling.
Your frind the Sissy Pastor,
Cory
oc says:
Cory,
Study more. Eat more protein.
And the Scripture that instructs us to call people names is?
What exactly do I need to study? Christian love for a brother, especially when they are in the wrong, does not call names. It may challenge or argue as you say, but then you said you don't care what it takes. I'm assuming you do care what Scripture says?
corey says:
And the Scripture that instructs us to call people names is?
oc says:
None, of course. But do you eat breakfast? No Scripture for that either, huh?
OK. Beyond that. You have not heard any Scripture that has my Lord calling names? White washed tombs? Thieves and liars? Murderers and adulterers? And He said even to His best friend, "get behind me Satan".
Where were you educated to think that name calling was the unforgivable sin? Our Lord used it. Quit studying PC crap,and please don't teach it to your congregation. That's why the modern church is so soft.
Study more. Eat more protein. Lots of protein. And quit lisping.
Just sayin'.
oc.
I see. Christianity according to OC:
1. We would be more Christlike if we called each other names.
"Our Lord used it."
2. We can sin, as long as it's not an "unforgivable" sin.
"Where were you educated to think that name calling was the unforgivable sin?"
3. The modern church is soft:
"That's why the modern church is so soft."
You'll want to buy the book, coming soon to a bookstore near you: "Purpose Driven God's Best For You Now Name Calling for hardshell Christians."
Including chapter 4: "You might be a sissy if..."
And chapter 18: "How to toughen up a soft church." (Hint: Call them names)
Mention MIke's blog and you'll get $1 off.
David.
Check your credentials.
And do like Santa. Check them twice.
Just sayin'.
oc.
I have never heard anyone say it is ok for me to do it cause the Lord did it. WOW!!!
I have suggested to all that you ignore his rants. You all have made great efforts to enlighten him and he simply chooses tp ignore everyone. Remeber it is not our job to make a decision for someone, but only to tell them.
Memphis
Memphis said:
I have never heard anyone say it is ok for me to do it cause the Lord did it. WOW!!!
oc says:
Wow yourself. The Lord forgave. It's ok for you to do it cause the Lord did it. Wow. Can you wrap your head around that?
Maybe it's your heart that can't wrap.
Just sayin'.
oc.
No I really can't see me calling someone a name on a blog to make fun or belittle them is any comparison to anything the Lord said or would do.
God called people out in truth, which he and only he knows that truth, and to say that I in any way am comparable to God in knowing the truth is something that makes me say WOW.
and i haven't found it in the Bible where it says can you wrap your head around that?
No I really can't see me calling someone a name on a blog to make fun or belittle them is any comparison to anything the Lord said or would do.
God called people out in truth, which he and only he knows that truth, and to say that I in any way am comparable to God in knowing the truth is something that makes me say WOW.
and i haven't found it in the Bible where it says can you wrap your head around that?
oc says:
Good. Wrap your head around this. All this crap happened because Charles displayed himself again, which many here interpreted as him crying out for help. Now you jump in, so I'm guessing you can help him. So now you want to battle me for the privilege. Ok, it's all yours baby. Good luck.
Just sayin'.
oc.
WOW....
”God called people out in truth, which he and only he knows that truth, and to say that I in any way am comparable to God in knowing the truth is something that makes me say WOW.”
John 8:31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.
1 John 2:20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge. 21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth.
1 John 4: 4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
OC "Check your credentials.
And do like Santa. Check them twice."
So do yo belong to the cult of Santa?
Do you want my credentials so you can quote me on the back of your new book? I can't wait!
OC,
are you writing a chapter on how to call people names in "Jesus name"? That should be a great chapter. I can't wait to have your stuff in paper form because I'm low on fire wood.
I love it when Christians use God as an excuse for bad behavior. You compare his calling out Scribes and Pharisees to your potty mouth. Not the same. Naughty naughty. Those belonging to the cult of Santa should try harder to be on the "good" list.
Huh. Breath. You may need to be holding yours too. Or he may do it for you.
I am not sure I even know what that means.
I am JUST SAYING that we can confront Charles (although I think that after Mike asked him to discontinue posting it is extremely disrespectful of us to continue to converse with him)but we can do it without calling him crazy or moonbat or whatever else.
I don't think he can say whatever he wants without consequence, I don't think we should just let it go unchecked. But we can maintain a Christian demeanor and civility.
I am pretty sure it seems really arrogant to say "well Jesus called people names" so I can too. When you start putting your judgment on par with Jesus' you are venturing into dangerous territory...
Ah, the sequal: There is no solid truth -- just what we precieve Scripture to say.
Written by that great author... what's his name? Oh yeah, he talks about credentials while he hides behind a SCREEN NAME!
Hey, OC, all the talk about credentials: I wasn't applying for a job with you. I am happily employed.
For the names you like to toss around, why don't you do a study of the names of Christ.
Prince of Peace
Lord of Lords
Emmanuel: God with us
Yeshua
Son of Man
Son of God
Lamb of God
Messiah
Getting anything here?
And by the way, Jessica, I liked your idea earlier: Ignore Charles and Mike will delete him.
OC:
Occupation: counselor
Do you call people "sissy" in councelng?
Maybe you have to hide who you are because you are violating a few ethics by the things you say out here, eh.
WAIT A MINUTE!
This does add up, doesn't it? Read this again, sounds like modern psycology:
"Be careful about what you think someone else said, what you may believe, and what you interpret from Scripture, and what is really there. It may be different than what you think."
I am pretty sure my post that first addressed the name calling was addressed to "all", so that would cover...well... everyone, right?
the first section was to Lynn and the rest was for everyone's enjoyment.
Well,
I find it interesting that all kinds of name-calling has taken place on this blog--and worse, the nefarious motivations of whole tracts of individuals judged as "anti-Bellevue," which is name-calling. Nobody here said jack when I was called an a**, now there's been a two-day war of words over "moonbat." It's hard to take such seriously when the directed ire illustrates a double-standard, one for the "forumites" and another for the Brattonites.
But Mike writes about other subjects, meaning the double standand for behavior gets an indulgence.
Otherwise, what is truly offensive is that, as usual, the BR has moved from substantive discussion to self-righteous posturing. Call me names all day, just please have something cogent to say.
Now, why would I want to be in your club?
Love,
the Jacka**
the Pastry
the anti-christian
No one should have called you that Cakes, and I really did intend to cover all of those type things- moonbat just happened to be the last one I saw. The name-calling is petty and childish.
It is like people who resort to using foul language because they don't have anything of substance to say.
Do you call people "sissy" in councelng?
oc says:
Yes, I do. I call it as I see it.
And you need to learn how to spell.
Just sayin'.
oc.
Cakes,
hello jack ass, pastry, anti-Christian, etc. How's your spirit hanging, after getting assaulted by the Inquisition?
I just bet that is a great witness to you, isn't it? Sure am glad some of these people have shown you the grace of God. Makes you want to be a Christian, doesn't it?
I want you to know, my friend, that some of us are not like that. You've seen it first hand.
Some of us know that we don't have all the answers. Even those of us who have walked with the Master many years. But we do know some very important answers though. And I also want you to know this, Cakes. There are those from the sheep fold that love you.
And my prayer is that the haughty, know it all sheep haven't quenched the Holy Spirit enough that you won't consider what He has for you.
Just sayin'.
oc.
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