Saturday, June 16, 2007

A word to the unwise

If you've read much of anything I've written online over the past ten months or so, you have gathered that one of the most frustrating things I can think of is when people engage in gossip, rumor-mongering and attempted character assassination whilst hiding in the tall grass of anonymity (as opposed to the tall grass at Oakmont, site of this year's U.S. Open).

This morning The Drudge Report (no relation) linked to a Reuters story regarding a precedent-setting lawsuit filed against people who used online anonymity to spread vicious threats, including "career-damaging rumors" and threats to do harm, against other people. The alleged--ahem--perpetrators were, surprisingly or not, regulars at a site designed for law school students.

As I read the piece, I could not help but think of the misguided few who regularly, and unfortunately, dispense anti-Bellevue bile. If you are one of that bitter minority who makes online attacks your weapon of choice, whether or not you sign them, the Reuters article should be sobering reading.

It is one thing to behave in such a way when one has a professed affinity for the law. When one has a professed affinity for God's grace, however, such behavior is even more out of place.

--Mike

52 comments:

junk99mail said...

Mike Bratton said...
As I read the piece, I could not help but think of the misguided few who regularly, and unfortunately, dispense anti-Bellevue bile.

Mike, are you using hyperbole to make a point, or do you really believe that the comments on the NBBCOF (or elsewhere) approach the level of abusiveness described in the article you linked to?

I'm not going to defend the inappopriate and wrong statements and attitudes to often shown on "the other blog", but I honestly can't recall seening much, if anything, over there nearly as bad as what the article describes. But I've only been following it since about last November, so maybe you're referring to things before then, or maybe you're referring to other sources.

I think I know enough of your style to anticipate that you might be tempted to say "Go read it again", but if that's what comes to mind, trust me, I've read it all, very closely. I'd like some specific examples (a dozen or so would do, given how long the blog has been running) that correspond to the kind of lewdness, harrassment, or potential psychological or ecomomic damage as was suffered by the plantifs on the lawsuit the article talks about.

I promise to review any examples you provide as objectively as I possibly can. But so far I've yet to see much evidence of an "anti-Bellevue" sentiment there, unless one equates being against Steve Gaines and/or his actions / performance as pastor as being anti-Bellevue. But surely you aren't equating the church with any one man.

Mike Bratton said...

junk99mail said...

Mike, are you using hyperbole to make a point, or do you really believe that the comments on the NBBCOF (or elsewhere) approach the level of abusiveness described in the article you linked to?


It should be a cautionary tale. To continue past your quote from my article thusly and like so, "If you are one of that bitter minority who makes online attacks your weapon of choice, whether or not you sign them, the Reuters article should be sobering reading."

In a word, I believe that the garbage that has been flung in Bellevue's direction is actionable.

I'm not going to defend the inappopriate and wrong statements and attitudes to often shown on "the other blog", but I honestly can't recall seening much, if anything, over there nearly as bad as what the article describes. But I've only been following it since about last November, so maybe you're referring to things before then, or maybe you're referring to other sources.

I'm referring to the Closed Forum; Integrity Does Count, But Only For Others; and Savaging Bellevue.

And if you'll peruse this blog, you'll find numerous offenses I've cited in an effort to get their participants to stop the flow of bile.

I think I know enough of your style to anticipate that you might be tempted to say "Go read it again",

Bravo! :)

but if that's what comes to mind, trust me, I've read it all, very closely.

Perhaps not closely enough?

I'd like some specific examples (a dozen or so would do, given how long the blog has been running) that correspond to the kind of lewdness, harrassment, or potential psychological or ecomomic damage as was suffered by the plantifs on the lawsuit the article talks about.

I promise to review any examples you provide as objectively as I possibly can. But so far I've yet to see much evidence of an "anti-Bellevue" sentiment there, unless one equates being against Steve Gaines and/or his actions / performance as pastor as being anti-Bellevue. But surely you aren't equating the church with any one man.


My references have been to the hatred directed at Pastor Gaines, the Bellevue staff, the Bellevue deacon body, and those with the character to refuse to unilaterally vivisect a brother or sister in Christ.

To be honest, my desire to get a good night's sleep prohibits me from the level of detail you request. However, here are a few of the worst offenders that come to mind--these should be easy to search out on this site:

1) The misuse of Ezekiel 34 as a way to publicly judge and threaten Steve Gaines and members of the Bellevue staff with death. Death threats, and the desire for the death of one person or another in Bellevue leadership, have been allowed in the anti-Bellevue playbook for quite awhile now.

2) The relentless comparisons of anyone not lining up with the anti-Bellevue mindset as being cult members "drinking the Kool-Aid."

3) Or just non-Christians in general.

4) Or as being in active, willful service of Satan, with Pastor Gaines being the "head demon."

5) The comparison of Bellevue deacons to masked Fascists giving Pastor Gaines the ol' Hitler salute. That one even came with its own photo illustration.

6) Threatening to disrupt Sunday services en masse, even going so far as to label a particular Sunday morning as the day for a "Showdown."

7) Unsupported allegations that two Bellevue staff members were racists.

And that's just off the top of my head.

I look forward to your response.

--Mike

Memphis said...

Mike, I agree that the way the bloggers tear down people is bad, and it comes from both sides, although it appears that it is mostly the "antis" (for lack of a better word) that now post on that site.

The way they all tend to gang up on someone that does not agree with them is what gets me. Whether it is someone saying they have a shallow post or that they are following a man, I see no one trying to build anyone up in any way. All I see is people trying to tear down, or embrass others, and regardless of how they feel they have been treated, they should be able to see how they are not building people in Christian love in my opinion. You have pople taking on roles in that community, and even Christians acting like bullies and bragging about being the bad boys of the group!

I have yet to hear anyone say that they are praying for Brother Steve or Jamie on that site.

JMHO

junk99mail said...

Thanks, Mike, for your response. I've seen the things you mentioned (though I interpret some of them differently), but they just don't seem to me to be the kind of damage claimed by the plantifs in the article. Actionable? Perhaps some of those things, with the right kind of lawyer. But we may just have to agree to disagree as to the level of real harm inflicted.

Memphis said...

Junk, If I may jump in...you said "we may just have to agree to disagree as to the level of real harm inflicted."

These are Christian believers that Mike was quoting....... I do not understand what you meant by real harm.

junk99mail said...

Memphis,
The article speaks of serious problems caused in real life for people as a result of on-line attacks directed at them. I meant that I don't see where the kinds of things on NBBCOF rise (or sink) to the same level of harm to those being written about.

WatchingHISstory said...

7:54 PM, June 15, 2007 I said that: "It appears to me that the SBC and Adrian Rogers are semipelagian/ Armininian."

So everyone is going to attack me over silly ad hominen issues and not the substance of my premise. I have made some serious charges to the SBC and Adrian Rogers and no one defends them rather they attack me.

So what was JMO must be a fact the SBC and AR are semipelagian/armininian.
And no one can deny it!

WatchingHISstory said...

WatchingHISstory said...
Romans 10:14
Parallel Translations

NASB: How then will they call on Him in whom they have NOT believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have NOT heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? (NASB ©1995)

GWT: But how can people call on him if they have NOT believed in him? How can they believe in him if they have NOT heard his message? How can they hear if no one tells [the Good News]? (GOD'S WORD®)

KJV: How then shall they call on him in whom they have NOT believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have NOT heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

ASV: How then shall they call on him in whom they have NOT believed? and how shall they believe in him whom they have NOT heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

BBE: But how will they give worship to him in whom they have NO faith? and how will they have faith in him of whom they have NOT had news? and how will they have news without a preacher?

DBY: How then shall they call upon him in whom they have NOT believed? and how shall they believe on him of whom they have NOT heard? and how shall they hear without one who preaches?

WEY: But how are they to call on One in whom they have NOT believed? And how are they to believe in One whose voice they have NEVER heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher?

WBS: How then shall they call on him in whom they have NOT believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have NOT heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

WEB: How then will they call on him in whom they have NOT believed? How will they believe in him whom they have NOT heard? How will they hear without a preacher?

YLT: How then shall they call upon [him] in whom they did NOT believe? and how shall they believe [on him] of whom they did NOT hear? and how shall they hear apart from one preaching?

Living Bible (paraphrased) But how shall they ask him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear unless someone tells them?

To be consistent with the other translations the paraphrase should read: "But how shall they ask him to save them if they have NOT believed in him."

The fallacy of the Living Bible in this verse is false cause (Post Hoc) The fact that A preceeds B does not make A the cause of B. The basic error is that of infering a causal relationship without sufficient grounds. An example would be "mary said, when I knock on wood, then I never become ill; therefore knocking on wood prevents illness."

Paul is saying, one who is not saved is not going to call on the Lord becaused he doesn't believe.
He doesn't believe because he has not heard and the reason he has not heard is because no one has preached to him.

Paul is clearly saying that the cause of salvation is that God sends a preacher.

The Living Bible implies that the sinner believes and is the cause of God sending a preacher so he can hear and believe. But if the sinner calls on the Lord because he believes then what is the purpose of preaching and why should God send the preacher?

If a sinner responds to a typical altar call such as Steve Gaines gave today, why even preach a sermon? Why should a sinner even go to church. He could just stand out in a field by himself and a loving god would save him as he calls on his name. "I want to be saved like Paul!

Steve Gaines used another fallacy in his appeal to another greater preacher than himself to add prestige to his premise. The Bible doesn't have to be proved if an appeal is made to a person held in high esteem for his Bible knowledge.

The problem is that his preacher friend follows the reasoning of the Living Bible's fallacy. His friend said that if a man was standing out in a field all by himself and wanted to be saved that God would send a soulwinner parachuting from a plane.
The sinner is the cause of God taking drastic measures to reach the sinner, pleading for God to save him.

Paul is saying if a sinner is standing out in a field by himself he is not going to call on the Lord because he doesn't believe.
If he is going to get saved it will be because God sends a preacher.

Even if that sinner has a Bible opened to Isaiah and he is reading for himself he is not going to get saved unless God sends him a preacher. God not the sinner is the cause of salvation. The sinner does not exercise any belief to call on God.
6:30 PM, June 10, 2007


(SEMIPELAGIANISM - teaches that man retains a measure of freedom by which he can cooperate with the grace of God.)

bugsii said...
I prefer Parkay over butter myself. Oops, wrong blog.

7:56 PM, June 10, 2007

Will anyone respond to this charge?
This illustrates the semipelagian/armininian views of Steve Gaines and Adrian Rogers.

bepatient said...

junk,

I had one more than one poster question my salvation, and another one call me an idiot. So even if you forget about the things said in regards to SG, the attacks on other posters are without regard to their feelings and reputation.

While perhaps not legally as offensive, I would say to a Christian having your salvation called into question by people who don't eve know you is pretty offensive.

And I took the "Kool Aid" references pretty personally as well- those people who were willing to drink something that would kill them were obviously brain-washed or just severely damaged in some way. So to tell me that I am on par with that mentality is pretty insulting.

bepatient said...

also, as far as long term effects, I think even if legally it is not a strong case, Christians should be sensitive to what they are saying in regards to another's spiritual status. They do not know me (or even really SG), and for all they know it could make me doubt my salvation, my position as a Christian (as far as wanting to leave the "faith" because of my treatment by other Christians), or just simply hurt me. And I think to Christians, the long term effects of one's actions that have eternal consequences should be far more weighty than legal ramifications.

WatchingHISstory said...

from NBBCOF (Idolatry website)

A display like this is designed to do one thing: Boast. But then, this sort of display/shrine usually comes about when someone dies as a memorial...at the very least. Even then it's existence is questionable in the church.

Adrian and Joyce Rogers were put on pedestals at Bellevue so we should not be surprised when Bellevue gets the shameless articles accusing them of idolatry.

NBBCOF should think about this before they put Steve and Donna Gaines down. They are just doing what comes natural at Bellevue.

Mike Bratton said...

WatchingHISstory said...
from NBBCOF (Idolatry website)

A display like this is designed to do one thing: Boast. But then, this sort of display/shrine usually comes about when someone dies as a memorial...at the very least. Even then it's existence is questionable in the church.

Adrian and Joyce Rogers were put on pedestals at Bellevue so we should not be surprised when Bellevue gets the shameless articles accusing them of idolatry.

NBBCOF should think about this before they put Steve and Donna Gaines down. They are just doing what comes natural at Bellevue.


Before you write another word about "idolatry," "pedestals," "boasting," or "shrines," please answer this question: Have you ever seen one of the displays being referenced?

--Mike

Mike Bratton said...

And while I'm thinking about it...

WatchingHISstory said...
7:54 PM, June 15, 2007 I said that: "It appears to me that the SBC and Adrian Rogers are semipelagian/ Armininian."

So everyone is going to attack me over silly ad hominen issues and not the substance of my premise. I have made some serious charges to the SBC and Adrian Rogers and no one defends them rather they attack me.

So what was JMO must be a fact the SBC and AR are semipelagian/armininian.
And no one can deny it!


Please don't.

I've been more than courteous to you here, so insisting things are facts when you've been shown they aren't is more than a bit grating.

--Mike

WatchingHISstory said...

absolutely I stood there and thought to myself, this is a shameless display. But I thought the same thing about the celebrity status attributed to Adrian and Joyce. She was a cheerleader and he was a football star and it added to his celebrity status. Many people at Bellevue would have taken a bullet for them.

I am willing to take a bullet for calling AR and the SBC semipelagian/armininian.

Mike Bratton said...

junk99mail said...
Memphis,
The article speaks of serious problems caused in real life for people as a result of on-line attacks directed at them. I meant that I don't see where the kinds of things on NBBCOF rise (or sink) to the same level of harm to those being written about.


Ever had your life threatened?

I have--more than once, and not just by pseudonymous members of the small anti-Bellevue nucleus.

Two vivid episodes were during my brief tenure in law enforcement. Once (the most blatant) was when I was providentially quicker on the draw than the fellow reaching into his bag for his .38 Special; the other was in a courtroom, as that same fellow, a mid-level drug dealer I'd arrested, was being hauled off after his sentencing.

Whether the weapon du jour is a handgun, a verbal threat, or the vile, malicious misuse of Scripture, the response is the same to a serious threat.

You weigh the words of people you don't know well with a little more suspicion--"Hmm, what did he mean by that?"

You check your rear-view mirror a little more often, to see if someone's coincidentally taking precisely the same route you are.

You check your doors a couple of times at night, and maybe add an extra lock or two. Or buy a dog. Or get a security system, maybe even a gun.

And if you mind isn't tempered by an abiding faith in God, that caution you're exercising can turn into fear.

When people writing anonymously think it would be a great thing if you were dead, Junk, please tell me why the "level of harm" isn't sufficient. And before you respond, please don't say anything along the lines of "Because they're Bellevue folks, you know they're nice!" That's what I used to think about Paul Williams, and I was as surprised as anyone to find out just how wrong my opinion of him was.

--Mike

Mike Bratton said...

WatchingHISstory said...
absolutely I stood there and thought to myself, this is a shameless display.


Please add to my information, then--I was under the impression you were not a Bellevue member.

But I thought the same thing about the celebrity status attributed to Adrian and Joyce. She was a cheerleader and he was a football star and it added to his celebrity status. Many people at Bellevue would have taken a bullet for them.

Then, for whatever reason, you misunderstand the reasons for those displays. Rather than elevate their subjects, they provide added depth and dimension, making them more accessible, not less.

And thank you for quoting me--my affection for Pastor and Mrs. Rogers came not from objectifying and idolizing them, but from getting to know them over the years. As real people.

I am willing to take a bullet for calling AR and the SBC semipelagian/armininian.

Unwise, since your opinion is not supported by fact.

--Mike

WatchingHISstory said...

I've been there lately to talk with several of the staff and six or so years ago I attended and knew right away that this was not a healthy Christian environment, based on AR's preaching.

I went to the staff because I didn't want to say anything behind their back, I would say to their face. I was impressed with their receptiveness. They know in their hearts things are not right at Bellevue. I would like to meet with Steve Gaines.

bepatient said...

I will comment on the Donna Gaines display because it is the one I am most familiar with, and I felt it was just there as a kind of "get to know you" setup. In a church the size of BBC it is unlikely that we all will be invited over for dinner to get to know the pastor and his wife, and this is designed to give you a little insight into the things that make Donna Gaines who she is.


And Watching, I do think we have all been kind and heard you out. We don't agree and have pointed out the reasons why. There are people who "idolize" Adrian Rogers- all we can do is pray that they will realize the error of their ways, but you won't find many of them.
Mostly, you will find people who recognize the gift they were given in the many years they spent learning from a great and godly man.

I was saved during a sermon by Dr. Rogers, and I have a "know so" salvation, so I gotta tell you it doesn't really matter to me even if you proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that Dr. Rogers was semipelagian/armininian or whatever.

junk99mail said...

Mike Bratton said...
When people writing anonymously think it would be a great thing if you were dead, Junk, please tell me why the "level of harm" isn't sufficient.

I didn't say you or anyone else had not been harmed, I only said that what I have read on NBBCOF doesn't appaer to me to be as harmful as the kinds of things described in the article. The charge in the article was that certain individuals were subjected to extreme lewdness, harrassment, and serious psychological and/or ecomomic damage. I may have missed it, but I just haven't seen anything quite that bad over there. But each of us has his own subjective response, and I recognize I might feel differently about how serious an online attack was if I were the object of it.

Plenty has been written there and elsewhere that shouldn't have been, and I am not seeking to justify anyone's wrongdoing. It is bad enough on its own merit, even if not the same in my mind as what has been experienced by others in other forums.

But sometimes it helps to understand the reasons for bad behavior, even though that doesn't excuse it. One thing I have noticed as pretty common amongst those banned from NBBCOF is the tendency to come in with harsh rebukes towards wrong attitudes without first attempting to build relationships. Right or wrong, most people do not respond well to criticism from those they do not already know and trust, especially when their misbehavior is rooted in feelings of being marginalized, disenfranchised, and having their concerns dismissed.

It's often hard even to receive rebuke from close friends, if their attitude does not come across as seeking their well-being. Much of what Job's "friends" had to say was theologically accurate, but their advice was offered out of context to the reality of the situation, and, as such, it was neither appropriate nor well received.

bepatient said...

Solomon,


If you are out there please please please tell me you are not the guy driving around Memphis with vanity plates that say "Solomon"...(.....)

It will just destroy the image of you I have in my mind!

WatchingHISstory said...

bepatient said:
"I was saved during a sermon by Dr. Rogers, and I have a "know so" salvation, so I gotta tell you it doesn't really matter to me even if you proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that Dr. Rogers was semipelagian/armininian or whatever."

You are right! It doesn't matter if Dr Rogers or Elmer Gantry was preaching. God could put words in a dumb ass and lead you to salvation. Your salvation is attributed to the Lord who sends the messenger. The Lord is the cause of your salvation.

Semipelagians want to make the believer or the soulwinner the first cause of their salvation. Armininians say, God elects believers.

The Bible says God elects unbelievers to salvation. Rom. 10:15 God didn't save you because you wanted to be saved, God saved you because He wanted you to be saved!

A messenger at his best is just a filthy rag, an earthen vessel or an ass. (He could be worse!) The gift of God is his righteous Son who died for our sins.

WatchingHISstory said...

Mike said

"Rather than elevate their subjects, they provide added depth and dimension, making them more accessible, not less."

watching said:

"Then, for whatever reason, you misunderstand the reasons for those displays."

WatchingHISstory said...

gmommy said...
TWO THINGS BLOG FRIENDS..

watchingHISstory said:
This started 17 years ago. This was taking place when AR was pastor. undetected. Did these interviews start 17 years ago? Probally not he was ministering at Bellevue for 34 years!!!

gmommy said:
I am going to say this again,
I know I will be ignored again....
sorry this is important to me...

WatchingHISstory said...

Can't you see that you are hurting these ministers? They try desperately to tell you that they don't deserve to be praised, and because of this you squeal with delight and praise them all the more. You're smothering them, making it almost impossible for them to see that it's really Jesus. They keep telling themselves that, but you keep telling them that it's really them, crushing their humility and grieving the Spirit that is trying to keep their eyes on Jesus... Let's all repent of idolatry..."
Keith Green

Couldn't this have been secretely the thoughts of AR or did he ever think theses thoughts?

Mike Bratton said...

WatchingHISstory said...

Semipelagians want to make the believer or the soulwinner the first cause of their salvation. Armininians say, God elects believers.

The Bible says God elects unbelievers to salvation. Rom. 10:15 God didn't save you because you wanted to be saved, God saved you because He wanted you to be saved!


You may have been thinking of another verse, perhaps even in Romans 10. Verse 15 reads thusly, and like so: "And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"

That demonstrates the responsibility of those who preach to do so because of God's prompting. The next verse, however, demonstrates God's unwillingness to save people against their own will:

Romans 10:16 "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?"

The Bible speaks of the elect, yes, but the Bible also says "Whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely."

--Mike

WatchingHISstory said...

Mike

Romans 10:16-19,21 God pleads with the messengers to preach repentance to the nation of Israel and for them to hear the message. However it was foretold by Moses and Isaiah that Israel would reject the message. So IMO it is unclear if you can make the statement that God is unwilling to save people against their will

However You can make the statement that God is willing to save people against their will, without making God contradict himself. (You can't have God willing and unwilling at the same time)

So while Israel predictably disobeyed God, in verse 20 Isaiah speaks boldly and confidently that God (to the Gentiles) was found of them that sought not after Him and was made manifest to them that ask not after Him.

It seems that God elects whomsoever he wills.

junk99mail said...

Mike Bratton said...
Ever had your life threatened?

I have--more than once, and not just by pseudonymous members of the small anti-Bellevue nucleus.


Mike,
I know your examples were not from blogging (and I hate hearing you've had that kind of chilling experience from any surce), but this brings to mind a question I had when you mentioned death threats before. Would you mind giving some more info on this?

I'm not looking for names (or screen names). I'm just wondering if you're saying, as I think you are, that you've received death threats as a result of your positions on the issues at Bellevue. If so, were the threats posted on a blog, or did you get emails, or phone calls, or what? Were the threats direct (like "I'm going to kill you!") or veiled/indirect (like "I wish you'd drop dead!"). Did you know (or seek to determine) the identity of the one(s) making the threats? Did you file any sort of police report or take any legal action?

I'm just trying to understand your experience and how it relates in your own thinking to the article you referenced. I'd rather have your perspective than just go by comparing the article to what I personally have read on NBBCOF or elsewhere.

Mike Bratton said...

junk99mail said...
Mike Bratton said...
Ever had your life threatened?

I have--more than once, and not just by pseudonymous members of the small anti-Bellevue nucleus.

Mike,
I know your examples were not from blogging (and I hate hearing you've had that kind of chilling experience from any surce), but this brings to mind a question I had when you mentioned death threats before. Would you mind giving some more info on this?


By all means. In relative terms, I'm an open book. :)

I'm not looking for names (or screen names). I'm just wondering if you're saying, as I think you are, that you've received death threats as a result of your positions on the issues at Bellevue.

Yes, I have.

If so, were the threats posted on a blog, or did you get emails, or phone calls, or what?

E-mails.

Were the threats direct (like "I'm going to kill you!") or veiled/indirect (like "I wish you'd drop dead!").

They were of the veiled/indirect variety, but clear enough that their intent was unmistakable--receiving high marks for subtlety and panache.

Did you know (or seek to determine) the identity of the one(s) making the threats?

They are simple enough to ascertain, but I've attempted to move beyond it. Only the continued charade of sanctifiction on the part of the anti-Bellevue nucleus prompted me to bring it up at all. They harbor (to borrow a word) people who, whether or not they know it or admit it, nurture murder in their hearts.

Did you file any sort of police report or take any legal action?

Not a bit, and here's why.

1) The threats I've received, subtle as they've been, leave an "out" for those who've made them.

2) There's a difference between being threatened and feeling threatened. I don't know if we've met or not, but if you know me personally, you know (and apologies for the tough-guy tone) that there isn't really a lot that makes me feel threatened. However, that doesn't excuse the behavior, whether it's directed at Pastor Gaines or at me.

I'm just trying to understand your experience and how it relates in your own thinking to the article you referenced. I'd rather have your perspective than just go by comparing the article to what I personally have read on NBBCOF or elsewhere.

Much obliged. If you have any other questions, please post them here or e-mail them--or we can even talk on the phone about it.

--Mike

Cakes said...

Mike,

How's it going? I got nothing to add on this debate about the elect or the unelected; nor on the issue of threats, I'm just sorry that you've gotten those sorts of missives.

Not every regular feels justified in making a jerk of themselves--moi for instance.

Peace-out, bro.

Mike Bratton said...

Cakes said...
Mike,

How's it going?


It goes well, actually. Just made the deal tonight to see our Tennessee home!

I got nothing to add on this debate about the elect or the unelected;

Well, be sure to hang around nevertheless. When time permits, I'm going to break out the King Of All Analogies as a way to illustrate why the elect and the "whosoever wills" are one and the same.

nor on the issue of threats, I'm just sorry that you've gotten those sorts of missives.

I appreciate the kindness--thanks.

Not every regular feels justified in making a jerk of themselves--moi for instance.

Um...

Nah, I won't go for the simple punchline. :)

Peace-out, bro.

Keep it real, homecakes.

--Mike

Mike Bratton said...

In my excitement, I typed the word "see" when I meant to type the word "sell," as in "Just made the deal tonight to sell our Tennessee home!"

Apologies. :)

--Mike

Karen said...

Isn't it a good feeling to NOT carry 2 mortgages? Congrats, Mike!

karen

WatchingHISstory said...

Christian yoga is just an itty bitty sin of the head and not the heart!

WatchingHISstory said...

fogmachine said...
Karen,
This is what happens when you loose your compass and the ability to discern.

Wonder where the compass and discernment were since 17 years ago at Bellevue?

How could a pedophile walk the halls undetected?

Mike Bratton said...

WatchingHISstory said...
fogmachine said...
Karen,
This is what happens when you loose your compass and the ability to discern.

Wonder where the compass and discernment were since 17 years ago at Bellevue?

How could a pedophile walk the halls undetected?


You know, you keep asking variations of that question, and yet the answer should be self-evident.

How do people walk the halls of any church harboring (there's that word again) any sin, whether of thought or of deed? And why are the Detect-O-Meters not being set off?

God does not make a habit, at least in this day and age, of revealing folks' sins to others. You might as well ask why people have to use wheelchairs, or crutches, or even eyeglasses--the answer will still be the same: We live in a sin-sick world, and those of us who are Christians are not called to be referees, but witnesses.

--Mike

WatchingHISstory said...

Acts 5 (King James Version)
1But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

2And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

5And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

6And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

7And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

8And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

9Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

10Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

11And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

Mike Bratton said...

Thank you for the Scripture reference; I don't mean to be presumptuous, but my hunch would be that most of the folks who frequent here are more than a bit familiar with that reference.

I certainly am.

Before going to any more trouble, I'd appreciate it if you'd answer the questions I've already asked. The Bible reference did not.

Unless, of course, Simon Peter is a member of your church. :)

--Mike

WatchingHISstory said...

Yes I am a member of the same church Peter belongs to!

This scripture obviously implies that the Holy Spirit has ways of making sins known even in these days.

This is your opinion: "God does not make a habit, at least in this day and age, of revealing folks' sins to others."

I am amazed that a pedophile walked the halls of Bellevue undetected.

I am guessing that there were a lot of women who asked their husbands at home (I Cor 14:35) about a funny feeling they had about PW and their husbands didn't following up on what the Holy Spirit impressed their wives to say.

What we have here is a failure to communicate and some sort of theological system hindered that spiritual process.

17 years!!! "We haven't even heard whether there be a Holy Spirit!"

junk99male said...

WatchingHISstory said...
I am guessing ...

Possibly the truest thing you've blogged to date.

WatchingHISstory said...

junk99male said...
WatchingHISstory said...
I am guessing ...

Possibly the truest thing you've blogged to date.

Now don't be foolish, junk. You must know for yourself that many women knew from interviews with PW that something was not right with him and they told their husbands that.

Wouldn't that be the Holy Spirit leading the seemingly feeble part of the body to inform the honorable part of the body?

And we all know that the honorable part of Bellevue don't listen to the seemingly feeble parts of the body.

Thus the PW fiasco!!!

WatchingHISstory said...

"Sexual predators are smart, extremely cunning and are often the pillars of the community who we would least expect to molest our children. They will do anything to get access to children."

This statement explains how PW could outsmart AR and remain at Bellevue for 17 years undetected.

WatchingHISstory said...

How long can a Catholic priest be an undetected pedophile?

WatchingHISstory said...

. . . .in the same parish?

bugsii said...

FYI...all books on John Piper's website are $5 Wed and Thursday only.
http://www.desiringgod.org/Store/Books/ByTopic/All/

bepatient said...

I am glad to see everyone is out enjoying the summer instead of posting all day long!!

I know I have been enjoying the hot weather! I am taking the baby swimming in a big pool for the first time tomorrow (if the weather cooperates)!!

Memphis said...

Hello again! Long time no post, and it feels nice. I was reading on the other blog today to try and catch up and find out if that fight ever happened? (please let me know)

Was also saddened to see how people do not want to even listen to others opinions still; however there seems to be more and more Biblical scholars on the site everyday, as well as the usual tough guys, which is amusing.

We need to meet up in the cave sometime to catch up soon!

Memphis

bible guy said...

Genesis 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 ¶ And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 ¶ And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 ¶ And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 ¶ And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 ¶ And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 ¶ And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 ¶ And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
1 ¶ Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 ¶ These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 ¶ And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 ¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18 ¶ And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 ¶ And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
1 ¶ Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 ¶ And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 ¶ And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11 ¶ And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 ¶ And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16 ¶ Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 ¶ And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
20 ¶ And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
21 ¶ Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
1 ¶ And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
3 ¶ And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 ¶ And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
8 ¶ And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
9 ¶ And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother’s keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground.
11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother’s blood from thy hand;
12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
13 ¶ And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
16 ¶ And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
18 And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech.
19 ¶ And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.
20 And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle.
21 And his brother’s name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.
22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah.
23 ¶ And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.
24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.
25 ¶ And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.
1 ¶ This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
6 ¶ And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:
7 And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:
8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
9 And Enos lived ninety years, and begat Cainan:
10 And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:
11 And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.
12 And Cainan lived seventy years, and begat Mahalaleel:
13 And Cainan lived after he begat Mahalaleel eight hundred and forty years, and begat sons and daughters:
14 And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.
15 And Mahalaleel lived sixty and five years, and begat Jared:
16 And Mahalaleel lived after he begat Jared eight hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters:
17 And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died.
18 And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat Enoch:
19 And Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
20 And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.
21 ¶ And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
25 ¶ And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech:
26 And Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters:
27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
28 ¶ And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.
30 And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters:
31 And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.
32 And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
1 ¶ And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 ¶ And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 ¶ There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 ¶ And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 ¶ But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
11 ¶ The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
13 ¶ And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.
15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.
16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.
17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons’ wives with thee.
19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.
21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.
22 ¶ Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.
1 ¶ And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
5 ¶ And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.
6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons’ wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
11 ¶ In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
13 ¶ In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah’s wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.
17 ¶ And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
21 ¶ And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.
1 ¶ And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged;
2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;
3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.
4 ¶ And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.
5 And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.
6 ¶ And it came to pass at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made:
7 And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth.
8 Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground;
9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.
10 And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark;
11 And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.
12 And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove; which returned not again unto him any more.
13 ¶ And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.
14 And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.
15 ¶ And God spake unto Noah, saying,
16 Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons’ wives with thee.
17 Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.
18 And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons’ wives with him:
19 Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.
20 ¶ And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.
1 ¶ And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man’s brother will I require the life of man.
6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
8 ¶ And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,
9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.
11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
12 ¶ And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
17 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.
18 ¶ And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan.
19 These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.
20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father’s nakedness.
24 ¶ And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26 And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
28 ¶ And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years.
29 And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.
1 ¶ Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.
2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.
4 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.
5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.
6 ¶ And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.
7 And the sons of Cush; Seba, and Havilah, and Sabtah, and Raamah, and Sabtecha: and the sons of Raamah; Sheba, and Dedan.
8 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.
9 He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.
10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.
11 Out of that land went forth Asshur, and builded Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah,
12 And Resen between Nineveh and Calah: the same is a great city.
13 And Mizraim begat Ludim, and Anamim, and Lehabim, and Naphtuhim,
14 And Pathrusim, and Casluhim, (out of whom came Philistim,) and Caphtorim.
15 ¶ And Canaan begat Sidon his firstborn, and Heth,
16 And the Jebusite, and the Amorite, and the Girgasite,
17 And the Hivite, and the Arkite, and the Sinite,
18 And the Arvadite, and the Zemarite, and the Hamathite: and afterward were the families of the Canaanites spread abroad.
19 And the border of the Canaanites was from Sidon, as thou comest to Gerar, unto Gaza; as thou goest, unto Sodom, and Gomorrah, and Admah, and Zeboim, even unto Lasha.
20 These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues, in their countries, and in their nations.
21 ¶ Unto Shem also, the father of all the children of Eber, the brother of Japheth the elder, even to him were children born.
22 The children of Shem; Elam, and Asshur, and Arphaxad, and Lud, and Aram.
23 And the children of Aram; Uz, and Hul, and Gether, and Mash.
24 And Arphaxad begat Salah; and Salah begat Eber.
25 And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother’s name was Joktan.
26 And Joktan begat Almodad, and Sheleph, and Hazarmaveth, and Jerah,
27 And Hadoram, and Uzal, and Diklah,
28 And Obal, and Abimael, and Sheba,
29 And Ophir, and Havilah, and Jobab: all these were the sons of Joktan.
30 And their dwelling was from Mesha, as thou goest unto Sephar a mount of the east.
31 These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations.
32 These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.
1 ¶ And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
5 ¶ And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.
8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
10 ¶ These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood:
11 And Shem lived after he begat Arphaxad five hundred years, and begat sons and daughters.
12 And Arphaxad lived five and thirty years, and begat Salah:
13 And Arphaxad lived after he begat Salah four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.
14 And Salah lived thirty years, and begat Eber:
15 And Salah lived after he begat Eber four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.
16 And Eber lived four and thirty years, and begat Peleg:
17 And Eber lived after he begat Peleg four hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters.
18 And Peleg lived thirty years, and begat Reu:
19 And Peleg lived after he begat Reu two hundred and nine years, and begat sons and daughters.
20 And Reu lived two and thirty years, and begat Serug:
21 And Reu lived after he begat Serug two hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters.
22 And Serug lived thirty years, and begat Nahor:
23 And Serug lived after he begat Nahor two hundred years, and begat sons and daughters.
24 And Nahor lived nine and twenty years, and begat Terah:
25 And Nahor lived after he begat Terah an hundred and nineteen years, and begat sons and daughters.
26 And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran.
27 ¶ Now these are the generations of Terah: Terah begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran; and Haran begat Lot.
28 And Haran died before his father Terah in the land of his nativity, in Ur of the Chaldees.
29 And Abram and Nahor took them wives: the name of Abram’s wife was Sarai; and the name of Nahor’s wife, Milcah, the daughter of Haran, the father of Milcah, and the father of Iscah.
30 But Sarai was barren; she had no child.
31 And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son’s son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram’s wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there.
32 And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years: and Terah died in Haran.
1 ¶ Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4 ¶ So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.
5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother’s son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.
6 ¶ And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.
7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.
8 And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD.
9 And Abram journeyed, going on still toward the south.
10 ¶ And there was a famine in the land: and Abram went down into Egypt to sojourn there; for the famine was grievous in the land.
11 And it came to pass, when he was come near to enter into Egypt, that he said unto Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that thou art a fair woman to look upon:
12 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see thee, that they shall say, This is his wife: and they will kill me, but they will save thee alive.
13 Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.
14 ¶ And it came to pass, that, when Abram was come into Egypt, the Egyptians beheld the woman that she was very fair.
15 The princes also of Pharaoh saw her, and commended her before Pharaoh: and the woman was taken into Pharaoh’s house.
16 And he entreated Abram well for her sake: and he had sheep, and oxen, and he asses, and menservants, and maidservants, and she asses, and camels.
17 And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram’s wife.
18 And Pharaoh called Abram, and said, What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife?
19 Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way.
20 And Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him: and they sent him away, and his wife, and all that he had.
1 ¶ And Abram went up out of Egypt, he, and his wife, and all that he had, and Lot with him, into the south.
2 And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold.
3 And he went on his journeys from the south even to Bethel, unto the place where his tent had been at the beginning, between Bethel and Hai;
4 Unto the place of the altar, which he had made there at the first: and there Abram called on the name of the LORD.
5 ¶ And Lot also, which went with Abram, had flocks, and herds, and tents.
6 And the land was not able to bear them, that they might dwell together: for their substance was great, so that they could not dwell together.
7 And there was a strife between the herdmen of Abram’s cattle and the herdmen of Lot’s cattle: and the Canaanite and the Perizzite dwelled then in the land.
8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdmen and thy herdmen; for we be brethren.
9 Is not the whole land before thee? separate thyself, I pray thee, from me: if thou wilt take the left hand, then I will go to the right; or if thou depart to the right hand, then I will go to the left.
10 ¶ And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered every where, before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, even as the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, as thou comest unto Zoar.
11 Then Lot chose him all the plain of Jordan; and Lot journeyed east: and they separated themselves the one from the other.
12 Abram dwelled in the land of Canaan, and Lot dwelled in the cities of the plain, and pitched his tent toward Sodom.
13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.
14 ¶ And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.
18 Then Abram removed his tent, and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar unto the LORD.
1 ¶ And it came to pass in the days of Amraphel king of Shinar, Arioch king of Ellasar, Chedorlaomer king of Elam, and Tidal king of nations;
2 That these made war with Bera king of Sodom, and with Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, and Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela, which is Zoar.
3 All these were joined together in the vale of Siddim, which is the salt sea.
4 Twelve years they served Chedorlaomer, and in the thirteenth year they rebelled.
5 And in the fourteenth year came Chedorlaomer, and the kings that were with him, and smote the Rephaims in Ashteroth Karnaim, and the Zuzims in Ham, and the Emims in Shaveh Kiriathaim,
6 And the Horites in their mount Seir, unto Elparan, which is by the wilderness.
7 And they returned, and came to Enmishpat, which is Kadesh, and smote all the country of the Amalekites, and also the Amorites, that dwelt in Hazezontamar.
8 And there went out the king of Sodom, and the king of Gomorrah, and the king of Admah, and the king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela (the same is Zoar;) and they joined battle with them in the vale of Siddim;
9 With Chedorlaomer the king of Elam, and with Tidal king of nations, and Amraphel king of Shinar, and Arioch king of Ellasar; four kings with five.
10 And the vale of Siddim was full of slimepits; and the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, and fell there; and they that remained fled to the mountain.
11 And they took all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah, and all their victuals, and went their way.
12 And they took Lot, Abram’s brother’s son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.
13 ¶ And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.
14 And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.
15 And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus.
16 And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.

WatchingHISstory said...

Bible Guy

And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked?

What is the answer to this question?

Mike Bratton said...

Please, less cutting-and-pasting.

Unless, of course, that in itself was an obtuse commentary on your part, Mr. Guy, in which case you'll need to tell us the point of your above post.

--Mike

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