tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post3520574184382548894..comments2023-11-02T03:14:55.334-05:00Comments on The Bratton Report: Words Mean ThingsMike Brattonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13145152348285384619noreply@blogger.comBlogger246125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-27498639546708335852007-10-04T21:24:00.000-05:002007-10-04T21:24:00.000-05:00billie, you said:"I want you to understand that I ...billie, you said:<BR/>"I want you to understand that I do not disagree with the statements that you make regarding the soveriegnty of God but I have a much deeper view of soveriegty involving God desiring a free heart willing to respond to and initiate intimacy."<BR/><BR/>I'm sure you would not intentionally imply that my view of sovereignty is shallow compared to yours. Mike dosen't look with favor upon such competition!<BR/><BR/>Actually neither of us are as deep as Paul when it comes to sovereignty. "Therfore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." Rom 9:18<BR/><BR/>Perhaps it can be said that theologians and preachers seek the middle position as the best. God has free will and man has free will so a middle position is sought without compromising either wills.<BR/><BR/>You say your view is deeper because God chooses to cooperate with the will of man in establishing intimacy. Of coarse I reply that your view is shallower than mine. You compromise God's sovereignty for the sake of man's. You say how can man truly love if he is not in charge of his own will. This seems to be the "love worth finding" that Dr. Rogers spoke about.<BR/><BR/>Billie, I'm not trying to sway you and I am enjoying the dialog. However if we (including all theologians) cannot find a proper middle road and we are going to err on one side or the other, I choose to err on the side of God's sovereignty. My own personal journey with Christ has found that intimacy is initiated with God apart from our efforts. In fact the harder you seek him the futher he seems to be. When you see yourself as a wretched sinner such that you have nothing to offer him, he comes to you swiftly as a thief in the night. You behold him as majestic and great in mercy.<BR/><BR/>I am willing to push the envelope as far as possible even if it means standing alone. God is absolute in sovereignty. If I am a mindless robot in his control (which I am not because while I am crucified with Christ I still live, yet not I...) then I would prefer that to being a selfmade individual. <BR/><BR/>I would choose Augustine's view of God being responsible for sin rather than move an inch toward any belief exalting the free will of man. I could be in error but erring on God's side rather than with man.<BR/><BR/>I am but a lump of clay in his hands. He has the power to do as he wills and who can resist his will? If he chooses me as a vessel for his glory then I will bow in gratitude for his mercy.<BR/><BR/>It is a fearful thing to submit to his will. Self-determination fights this submission.<BR/><BR/>This is not fatalism but faith in God who fitted his son as a vessel of wrath to make his power and the riches of his mercy known to an undeserving people and a beloved of people not beloved.WatchingHISstoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10339668990091164802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-48671780672030518022007-10-04T17:18:00.000-05:002007-10-04T17:18:00.000-05:00You know, I have always loved the Catholic faith. ...You know, I have always loved the Catholic faith. I love the serenity and quiet of their sanctuaries and how people come in quietly to pray and go to confession. <BR/><BR/>We can pray anywhere, but why do most of us close our eyes? It focuses your thoughts and blocks out distractions. <BR/><BR/>We don't have to have a special building for prayer, and I know people will argue that we have a sanctuary and chapel, but the main building is always full of activity and does not have a peaceful area that you can go and be alone and quiet. <BR/><BR/>I don't know if the rumor of the labyrinth is true (seems like a lot of talk with nothing to back it up) but the fact is this- an honest prayer prayed from a praywalk or labyrinth is just as honoring to God as a prayer that is prayed on the mission field, or at a kitchen sink.Jessicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03237521455003499534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-8895414537665960652007-10-04T16:26:00.000-05:002007-10-04T16:26:00.000-05:00Karen said... JA said,I just don't understand the ...<I>Karen said... <BR/>JA said,<BR/><BR/>I just don't understand the double standard here. First, there's no evidence that Steve Gaines is going to build a prayer labyrinth. But if he did, why is it wrong for him but heroic for Christa Brown to use her victim status to try to force one on another Baptist church?<BR/><BR/><BR/>First I have no idea what you're talking about referring to Christa Brown, so I can't speak to it.</I><BR/><BR/>You're a good Googler, Karen. I don't know the location of the article being referenced, but I have read it, and Ms. Brown is on record as advocating their construction at a Baptist church.<BR/><BR/>Oh, I rememeber now... just visit the Stop Baptist Predators blog. That's where it was.<BR/><BR/>And I even saved you the Google.<BR/><BR/>--Mike<BR/><BR/>P.S.: We'll be praying for your pop.Mike Brattonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13145152348285384619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-553689844211692702007-10-04T14:56:00.000-05:002007-10-04T14:56:00.000-05:00Also when I Googled "prayer journey" (referenced o...Also when I Googled "prayer journey" (referenced on Prayer Ministry Update as uses for the prayer chapel) the 1st thing that comes up is the following - <BR/><BR/>Make sure you have sufficient room to begin building your labyrinth. Each circuit or pathway for<BR/>this design will be 2 feet wide. The total width of the whole prayer journey will be 32 ft. You can easily change the size by changing how large you make each circuit or pathway. For example if<BR/>each circuit is 1.5 feet, your floor space will need to be 24 feet in diameter to build your prayer<BR/>journey.<BR/>Step 2: Prepare the Rope<BR/>The plunger will be your center point to mark off your circles. Secure your plunger in the center<BR/>of your room. Make a loop in one end of the rope so that you can put it over the plunger that is in<BR/>the center of the path. Make sure the rope including the loop is 16 ft long. Using your measuring<BR/>tape place marks in 2 foot increments with the masking tape on the rope. Start you measurements<BR/>from the end with the loop over the plunger. These marks will guide the drawing of your circuits.<BR/>Step 3: Begin to Draw<BR/>Put the rope’s loop over the top of the plunger. At this point you should have a plunger with a<BR/>rope extending from it, which has been marked with masking tape every 2 feet. Have one person<BR/>hold the plunger. (If you are doing this by yourself you can weight the plunger down with a<BR/>barbell weight.) Now walk around the entire circle with tension on the rope to ensure that you<BR/>have enough space. Then beginning with the furthest mark (16 ft.), walk around the circle<BR/>making small marks with the chalk. Just follow the way the rope pulls as you walk, keeping<BR/>tension between you and the plunger. Repeat this process at the 14 ft., 12 ft., 10 ft., 8 ft., 6 ft., 4<BR/>ft., and 2 ft. marks. (See the diagram below for help.) After drawing the circles do not remove<BR/>the plunger. If your environment doesn’t allow for chalk, get creative. One group in the<BR/>Philippines made small marks with pine needles when constructing a path outside.<BR/>Step 4: Mark Your First Lines (The Quadrants)<BR/>In this step you will find your permanent lines. Using the two sections of 32 ft rope, place the<BR/>sections of rope in a cross shape, having them intersect each other in the center of the circle<BR/>where the plunger is. Consult the diagram below and follow these steps:<BR/>Draw two chalk lines on opposite sides of Rope 1 (at the bottom of the rope cross you have<BR/>made). Each line should be one foot away from the rope. This forms a two-foot wide path for<BR/>your entrance. The chalk line on your left (as you face the center) should connect from the<BR/>outermost circle (16 ft.) to the innermost circle (2 ft.). The chalk line on the right should connect<BR/>from the outermost circle (16 ft.) to the 4 ft. circle. These two lines are shown in the diagram as<BR/>chalk line 1.<BR/>Move to the opposite side, the top of the rope cross. Stand at the outermost circle and look back<BR/>toward the center. Draw a line along the right side of the rope (as you are facing the center),<BR/>connecting the outermost circle (16 ft.) to the 4 ft. circle. This line on the opposite side of chalk<BR/>line chalk line 1 is shown as chalk line 2 in the diagram.<BR/>To make chalk lines 3 and 4, draw two lines, one on each side of the circle, directly under the<BR/>second rope (the cross beam of the rope cross). Start from the 14 ft. circle and end at the center<BR/>circle (2 ft.). These lines are shown as chalk lines 3 and 4 on the diagram.<BR/>Put tape over these chalk lines you just created. These lines are a permanent part of the path.<BR/>The diagram below should help you understand what it should look like at this stage.<BR/>Step 5: Identify the Turning Points<BR/>A turning point is the point in the circuit path where you stop at a line and must turn to continue<BR/>your journey. At this step, you need to identify all your turning points. (You can see them on the<BR/>diagrams below.) Mark all turning points with a dot on the dashed chalk circles 2 feet out from<BR/>the tape lines that you made in the previous step. This will give you a 2-foot turning point. Here<BR/>is where to put the turning points on each line:<BR/>• Chalk Line 1 Left (as you face the center): 2 feet out from the line on the 2 ft., 6 ft., 10<BR/>ft., and 14 ft. circles.<BR/>• Chalk Line 1 Right (as you face the center): 2 feet out from the line on the 6 ft., 10 ft.,<BR/>and 14 ft. circles.<BR/>• Chalk Line 2 (top of the circle): 2 feet out from the line, on both sides, on the 6 ft., 10 ft.,<BR/>and 14 ft. circles.<BR/>• Chalk Line 3 (the left of center): 2 feet out from the line, on both sides, on the 4 ft., 8 ft.,<BR/>and 12 ft. circles.<BR/>• Chalk Line 4 (the right of center): 2 feet out from the line, on both sides, on the 4 ft., 8<BR/>ft., and 12 ft. circles.<BR/>Compare the diagrams below with the diagram above; this will help you start to see what you<BR/>need to do to get to your final design.<BR/>Turning point dots. (This is what you should have when you have marked all your turning<BR/>points.)<BR/>Step 6: Make the Circuit Lines<BR/>Now it is a matter of connecting the dots . . . to the proper lines!<BR/>1. Connect the turning points with the lines (from step 4) opposite that particular turning<BR/>point. Don’t connect them to the lines that are the nearest. Make the line with masking<BR/>tape right along the dashed circuit lines. Start at the dot and follow the circuit line to the<BR/>line away from the line the dot is closest to. The diagram below shows this.<BR/>2. On the outer ring, connect all the dash lines with tape, except for the opening between the<BR/>two lines for the entrance (the lines that are two feet apart that were the bottom of the<BR/>rope cross).<BR/>3. Connect the dash lines in the center ring, leaving a 2 foot gap between the turning point<BR/>and the nearest taped line as shown in the diagram.<BR/>4. Use water and a wet rag to clean up all the remaining chalk marks.<BR/>Step 7: Placing Stations<BR/>Take 12 station numbers (or however many stations you are doing) and place them on the path.<BR/>Be aware that a large number of people could be around one station at a time. Try to space<BR/>stations out so that people at one station are not interfering with another station. A sample<BR/>placement can be found below.<BR/>Congratulations you have made a prayer labyrinth!Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11805543641376648431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-13477810097933566982007-10-04T14:55:00.000-05:002007-10-04T14:55:00.000-05:00Also when I Googled "prayer journey" (referenced o...Also when I Googled "prayer journey" (referenced on Prayer Ministry Update as uses for the prayer chapel) the 1st thing that comes up is the following - <BR/><BR/>Make sure you have sufficient room to begin building your labyrinth. Each circuit or pathway for<BR/>this design will be 2 feet wide. The total width of the whole prayer journey will be 32 ft. You can easily change the size by changing how large you make each circuit or pathway. For example if<BR/>each circuit is 1.5 feet, your floor space will need to be 24 feet in diameter to build your prayer<BR/>journey.<BR/>Step 2: Prepare the Rope<BR/>The plunger will be your center point to mark off your circles. Secure your plunger in the center<BR/>of your room. Make a loop in one end of the rope so that you can put it over the plunger that is in<BR/>the center of the path. Make sure the rope including the loop is 16 ft long. Using your measuring<BR/>tape place marks in 2 foot increments with the masking tape on the rope. Start you measurements<BR/>from the end with the loop over the plunger. These marks will guide the drawing of your circuits.<BR/>Step 3: Begin to Draw<BR/>Put the rope’s loop over the top of the plunger. At this point you should have a plunger with a<BR/>rope extending from it, which has been marked with masking tape every 2 feet. Have one person<BR/>hold the plunger. (If you are doing this by yourself you can weight the plunger down with a<BR/>barbell weight.) Now walk around the entire circle with tension on the rope to ensure that you<BR/>have enough space. Then beginning with the furthest mark (16 ft.), walk around the circle<BR/>making small marks with the chalk. Just follow the way the rope pulls as you walk, keeping<BR/>tension between you and the plunger. Repeat this process at the 14 ft., 12 ft., 10 ft., 8 ft., 6 ft., 4<BR/>ft., and 2 ft. marks. (See the diagram below for help.) After drawing the circles do not remove<BR/>the plunger. If your environment doesn’t allow for chalk, get creative. One group in the<BR/>Philippines made small marks with pine needles when constructing a path outside.<BR/>Step 4: Mark Your First Lines (The Quadrants)<BR/>In this step you will find your permanent lines. Using the two sections of 32 ft rope, place the<BR/>sections of rope in a cross shape, having them intersect each other in the center of the circle<BR/>where the plunger is. Consult the diagram below and follow these steps:<BR/>Draw two chalk lines on opposite sides of Rope 1 (at the bottom of the rope cross you have<BR/>made). Each line should be one foot away from the rope. This forms a two-foot wide path for<BR/>your entrance. The chalk line on your left (as you face the center) should connect from the<BR/>outermost circle (16 ft.) to the innermost circle (2 ft.). The chalk line on the right should connect<BR/>from the outermost circle (16 ft.) to the 4 ft. circle. These two lines are shown in the diagram as<BR/>chalk line 1.<BR/>Move to the opposite side, the top of the rope cross. Stand at the outermost circle and look back<BR/>toward the center. Draw a line along the right side of the rope (as you are facing the center),<BR/>connecting the outermost circle (16 ft.) to the 4 ft. circle. This line on the opposite side of chalk<BR/>line chalk line 1 is shown as chalk line 2 in the diagram.<BR/>To make chalk lines 3 and 4, draw two lines, one on each side of the circle, directly under the<BR/>second rope (the cross beam of the rope cross). Start from the 14 ft. circle and end at the center<BR/>circle (2 ft.). These lines are shown as chalk lines 3 and 4 on the diagram.<BR/>Put tape over these chalk lines you just created. These lines are a permanent part of the path.<BR/>The diagram below should help you understand what it should look like at this stage.<BR/>Step 5: Identify the Turning Points<BR/>A turning point is the point in the circuit path where you stop at a line and must turn to continue<BR/>your journey. At this step, you need to identify all your turning points. (You can see them on the<BR/>diagrams below.) Mark all turning points with a dot on the dashed chalk circles 2 feet out from<BR/>the tape lines that you made in the previous step. This will give you a 2-foot turning point. Here<BR/>is where to put the turning points on each line:<BR/>• Chalk Line 1 Left (as you face the center): 2 feet out from the line on the 2 ft., 6 ft., 10<BR/>ft., and 14 ft. circles.<BR/>• Chalk Line 1 Right (as you face the center): 2 feet out from the line on the 6 ft., 10 ft.,<BR/>and 14 ft. circles.<BR/>• Chalk Line 2 (top of the circle): 2 feet out from the line, on both sides, on the 6 ft., 10 ft.,<BR/>and 14 ft. circles.<BR/>• Chalk Line 3 (the left of center): 2 feet out from the line, on both sides, on the 4 ft., 8 ft.,<BR/>and 12 ft. circles.<BR/>• Chalk Line 4 (the right of center): 2 feet out from the line, on both sides, on the 4 ft., 8<BR/>ft., and 12 ft. circles.<BR/>Compare the diagrams below with the diagram above; this will help you start to see what you<BR/>need to do to get to your final design.<BR/>Turning point dots. (This is what you should have when you have marked all your turning<BR/>points.)<BR/>Step 6: Make the Circuit Lines<BR/>Now it is a matter of connecting the dots . . . to the proper lines!<BR/>1. Connect the turning points with the lines (from step 4) opposite that particular turning<BR/>point. Don’t connect them to the lines that are the nearest. Make the line with masking<BR/>tape right along the dashed circuit lines. Start at the dot and follow the circuit line to the<BR/>line away from the line the dot is closest to. The diagram below shows this.<BR/>2. On the outer ring, connect all the dash lines with tape, except for the opening between the<BR/>two lines for the entrance (the lines that are two feet apart that were the bottom of the<BR/>rope cross).<BR/>3. Connect the dash lines in the center ring, leaving a 2 foot gap between the turning point<BR/>and the nearest taped line as shown in the diagram.<BR/>4. Use water and a wet rag to clean up all the remaining chalk marks.<BR/>Step 7: Placing Stations<BR/>Take 12 station numbers (or however many stations you are doing) and place them on the path.<BR/>Be aware that a large number of people could be around one station at a time. Try to space<BR/>stations out so that people at one station are not interfering with another station. A sample<BR/>placement can be found below.<BR/>Congratulations you have made a prayer labyrinth!Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11805543641376648431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-10505351672409705342007-10-04T14:49:00.000-05:002007-10-04T14:49:00.000-05:00JA said,I just don't understand the double standar...JA said,<BR/><BR/>I just don't understand the double standard here. First, there's no evidence that Steve Gaines is going to build a prayer labyrinth. But if he did, why is it wrong for him but heroic for Christa Brown to use her victim status to try to force one on another Baptist church?<BR/><BR/><BR/>First I have no idea what you're talking about referring to Christa Brown, so I can't speak to it.<BR/><BR/>What I can speak to is if you will go on BBC's website and click on the Prayer Ministry Update link (it's on the front page), you can read where the prayer chapel will be "A place for prayer rallies, prayerwalks, nightwatch prayer vigils, National Day of Prayer gatherings, prayer journeys, special emphasis prayer meetings, etc." In my experience "pray walks" were where you went around the church or the neighborhood and prayed. Why would you need a prayer chapel to do a pray walk? That makes no sense - you go on prayer walks, you make walking progress around whereever you are - if you have a praywalk in a prayer chapel (notice the difference in "prayer walk" and "prayerwalk" - "prayerwalk" comes from the BBC website, not me). Words mean things - if "prayerwalk" doesn't mean walking a labryinth, they need to clarify it.<BR/><BR/>Also, there is the small detail of the blueprints some have seen that show a maze in the middle of the chapel. If they dont' mean to have a labryinth shape, the blueprints need to be changed. <BR/><BR/>Ask the Navy about blueprints coming out WRONG - a barracks was built in the 60s which was all fine and good until someone took an aerial photo and discovered that the barracks was built in the shape of a swastika.Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11805543641376648431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-41306692123532739832007-10-04T10:03:00.000-05:002007-10-04T10:03:00.000-05:00**Now the Holy Spirit is limited or He is not, you...**Now the Holy Spirit is limited or He is not, you can't have it both ways. He is sovereign. You imply that God can make a rock bigger than He can carry. That doesn't make sense.*** God will never limit Himself! He rules providentially and by decrees. All that He does he announces beforehand, There is nothing out of His control!<BR/><BR/>His Love for us is a unilateral love, self-contained, not requiring our loving him back. All that we give back to God (our submission) is an enablement from God himself. Who can separate us from that Love! If God be for us who can be against us! <BR/><BR/>Charles,<BR/>The above statement with ** I don't believe you fully understand what I have said so I will try to make it a little clearer. Do you believe that God is in full control of His own hands? Do you believe that He can place His hands where He desires to place them? To say that God does not limit Himself (control Himself) to bring about the right things at the exact right moment is not how the Bible presents Him. One story that comes to my mind is in Daniel. Daniel prayed for 21 days and he was in great distress. When the Angel of the Lord finally came to comfort him he reported to Daniel that He was "from the first day that he set his heart on understanding and on humbling himself before God, his words were heard" then He said but for 21 days the prince of the kingdom of Persia was preventing him from coming. Charles, you and I both agree that God's power is unlimited so can you explain why God did not respond immediately? The only thing that makes sense is that He held back Himself until certain things were in the right place and I beleive number 1 was the heart of Daniel (God desired to stregth Daniel's faith)This is what I meant when I said that the wait is not for God it is for us. He predestined (set in law) everything pertaining to how He would deal with the people He created and the free will of the heart)<BR/>Another example is the act of forgiveness which so many of us have struggled with in our lives.<BR/>God requires us to forgive, but forgiveness is a process that has to have a beginning point and that point is when we choose to want to obey God and forgive. The actual relationship may never be restored because of the actions of the other person involved. God chose to forgive everyone who will receive His Son as Lord, but He can not have a relationship with us unless we are willing to come into a healthy godly relationship with Him. The closeness or intimacy doesn't happen until we grow with Him. Can He give it to us all at once? Yes, He could but He does not (He holds back the fulness of joy).<BR/>I want you to understand that I do not disagree with the statements that you make regarding the soveriegnty of God but I have a much deeper view of soveriegty involving God desiring a free heart willing to respond to and initiate intimacy. We both agree that the offer had to be available first.<BR/> I have a busy day scheduled and must go. Hope we can continue our discussion.<BR/>BillieBilliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03555183818157725611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-90836616820746440002007-10-04T08:14:00.000-05:002007-10-04T08:14:00.000-05:00http://www.banneroftruth.org/pages/articles/articl...http://www.banneroftruth.org/pages/articles/article_detail.php?1316<BR/><BR/>..an interesting article about Charles FinneyWatchingHISstoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10339668990091164802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-33199690407856940332007-10-04T07:33:00.000-05:002007-10-04T07:33:00.000-05:00BillieThanks for the compliment, you are a nice pe...Billie<BR/>Thanks for the compliment, you are a nice person as well. I believe that John thinks so too!<BR/><BR/>you said: "The waiting, is for us to learn about who He is, not for Him to know who we are."<BR/><BR/>There is no waiting on his part and the words we will hear in judgement is "I knew you" not did you know me.<BR/><BR/>In human conception the first sexual organs to be used in the process is the eyes and then the heart, the seat of erotic affection. Your life started in the twinkle of your father's eye!<BR/>You were born without thoughts, you had strong feelings but no words formed your mind. That came much later in life. Your seed of life was in your father, even before he knew your mother. Sadly you were conceived in iniquity and sinfulness. That seed carried a connection to Adam and Eve. There was the quilt of sin embedied in it. From birth you would carry that sinfulness.<BR/><BR/>For our heavenly Father to have a twinkle in His eye for us His love for us would have to be before the foundations of the earth. Otherwise to be Biblically consistent there was no basis for Him loving us after the entrance of sin. We were pronounced dead in sin and cut off from God.<BR/><BR/>There is no cooperation of the sinner with God in the new birth, else there would be a reason for us to boast on our part. Isn't there a little boasting in your post about your part in your salvation?<BR/><BR/>Who taught you that God limits himself? You said, "I am not the best theologian.." Well neither am I; I am an armchair theologian!<BR/>Someone had to have planted that error in your mind.<BR/><BR/>You said: "The Holy Spirit is not limited at any point but then we enter into the free will of man, because the Holy Spirit limits Himself (He is in complete control of what He does) He limits Himself from giving certain gifts to us until we are willing to obey His laws, steps (ordinances) Yes, God knows who will and who will not but as in any relationship in order to have meaning and a deep loving relationship the couple must to cooperate with one another."<BR/><BR/>Now the Holy Spirit is limited or He is not, you can't have it both ways. He is sovereign. You imply that God can make a rock bigger than He can carry. That doesn't make sense. God will never limit Himself! He rules providentially and by decrees. All that He does he announces beforehand, There is nothing out of His control!<BR/><BR/>His Love for us is a unilateral love, self-contained, not requiring our loving him back. All that we give back to God (our submission) is an enablement from God himself. Who can separate us from that Love! If God be for us who can be against us! <BR/><BR/>call me CharlesWatchingHISstoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10339668990091164802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-8134457299470084582007-10-03T21:45:00.000-05:002007-10-03T21:45:00.000-05:00Billie my question to you is not are you Calvinist...Billie my question to you is not are you Calvinist or Arminian but since your roots go back to Christ (which all true believers believe) have you received the baptism of the Holy Spirit?<BR/><BR/>Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?<BR/><BR/>7:08 PM, October 03, 2007<BR/><BR/>Watchinghistory,<BR/>The Holy Spirit, as you know, leads the believer from the moment of conception. I say, conception, because we receive Him into the heart of our body. The first place the Holy Spirit leads, according to the New Test. is baptism. If you are really asking if the Holy Spirit comes before baptism? Yes, but He leads to obedience and the beginning of obedience is baptism. I have been taught, and I have personally studied the Scriptures regarding baptism because we have family members from another denomination who believe that salvation does not exist without baptism.<BR/>The Holy Spirit is not limited at any point but then we enter into the free will of man, because the Holy Spirit limits Himself (He is in complete control of what He does) He limits Himself from giving certain gifts to us until we are willing to obey His laws, steps (ordinances) Yes, God knows who will and who will not but as in any relationship in order to have meaning and a deep loving relationship the couple must to cooperate with one another. The waiting, is for us to learn about who He is, not for Him to know who we are. The first test of obedience is our willingness to listen carefully to His steps, which He said, "Come and follow Me"<BR/><BR/>Why would God call Calvin to reform the old way of infant baptism when He had many followers who had followed Him out of the old way?<BR/><BR/>I am not the best theologian in the world by any means but some things I do know without a shadow of doubt I know that God has not predestined before the foundation of the world to create a child to go to hell and another one to go to heaven if that were so you would have to take John 3: 16 out of His Word. I know that God has an "elect" (those who receive His Son are the elect) those are the ones He has predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. I know that we are saved by Grace through faith (a joined relationship) I know God always does His part of the relationship and we are responsible for our part otherwise there would be no need of a judgement.<BR/><BR/>P S I sure have enjoyed discussing these things with you. You are unlike others I have talked with about this subject. I have you pictured as a nice person.Billiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03555183818157725611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-67578818989757374552007-10-03T21:36:00.000-05:002007-10-03T21:36:00.000-05:00concernedSBCer said... Karen: You would hope that ...<I>concernedSBCer said... <BR/>Karen: You would hope that it would open the eyes for some, but think about this: if a fence, a $25,000 donation, a pedophile, etc. didn't open their eyes....well, I'm doubtful a Labryrith would.</I><BR/><BR/>I just don't understand the double standard here. First, there's no evidence that Steve Gaines is going to build a prayer labyrinth. But if he did, why is it wrong for him but heroic for Christa Brown to use her victim status to try to force one on another Baptist church?<BR/><BR/>It sure sounds like to me that whatever the EEEEVVVVVVVIIILLLL church leaders do, whether opposing a labyrinth or constructing one, will be railed against. <BR/><BR/>That sure supports Billies statement that most of the bloggers are just there to rebel against authority.John Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10670125206949485939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-55583186676471846842007-10-03T21:28:00.000-05:002007-10-03T21:28:00.000-05:00Oh, it's just dandy to say whatever you want about...Oh, it's just dandy to say whatever you want about whoever you want whenever you want. The NBBCOF fully subscribes to the 'it's right if it feels good' philosophy of the 60s.<BR/><BR/>If you feel like having a few chuckles at the expense of the pastor of Bellevue, go for it! And make fun of anyone who's hurt by your ugliness. And if that fails, condemn them as satanists.<BR/><BR/><I>sickofthelies said... <BR/>Billie, <BR/><BR/>Do you think that it's a bad thing that PW was exposed, even if it was done on this EVVVVIIIIILLLLL<BR/>Blog?<BR/><BR/>Would you rather that he still be in his position and there would have never been a blog to expose him.<BR/><BR/>This blog has allowed what has been done in the dark to be brought to light. That's a bad thing?<BR/><BR/>Satan would have loved for him to remain undetected. Satan hates this blog. Apparently you two have something in common.</I><BR/><BR/>What a kind thing to say about somebody. <BR/><BR/>Everybody, leave those people alone. Would you spend your time in the casinos? A brothel? A bar? At least the patrons of those joints don't pretend to be godly. <BR/><BR/>Maybe some of them will repent someday, but most won't. It's not a mission field. They've heard more than enough to know the truth. (At least they admit they don't have the truth. They call themselves truth<I>seekers</I> instead of truth <I>holders</I>.)<BR/><BR/>There needs to be a huge 'keep out' sign at the top of that EVVVVIIIIILLLLL place.John Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10670125206949485939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-21066126375874586292007-10-03T20:42:00.000-05:002007-10-03T20:42:00.000-05:00It appears that those who are in opposition to BBC...It appears that those who are in opposition to BBC and it's leadership will mock anyone who says something nice about the church. Even someone who is 5 years old.<BR/><BR/>Mocking a kid who speaks with a lisp is pretty low if you ask me. (Emphisis in bold is mine)<BR/><BR/>New BBC Open Forum said...<BR/>I saw the first of the four new BBC TV ads tonight -- "Adorable Kids."<BR/><BR/>What do you like about Sunday School?<BR/><BR/>(I didn't know that archaic term was still used at BBC.)<BR/><BR/>I love it when we play games.<BR/><BR/>I like it when... I... paint rainbows.<BR/><BR/>I get to be with my friends.<BR/><BR/>I like to learn about Jesus so I can be more like Him.<BR/><BR/><B>It's gweat to have lots of fwiends so we can pway for each other.</B><BR/><BR/>I love to sing songs about Jesus.<BR/><BR/>It's fun to do Bible verses and get prizes.Barnabashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02323552383958480905noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-3623770240757249282007-10-03T20:19:00.000-05:002007-10-03T20:19:00.000-05:00The baptism of the Holy Spirit in the words of B.B...The baptism of the Holy Spirit in the words of B.B. Warfield is 'that sight of the majesty of God that prevades all of life and all of experience.'WatchingHISstoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10339668990091164802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-15081929464351137182007-10-03T19:54:00.000-05:002007-10-03T19:54:00.000-05:00criticism, Mary, criticismThe difference btw disce...criticism, Mary, criticism<BR/><BR/>The difference btw discernment, which is an enablement from God for our guidance and unjust judgement is what you offer.WatchingHISstoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10339668990091164802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-54665333162191571542007-10-03T19:42:00.000-05:002007-10-03T19:42:00.000-05:00Discernment, Ms Billie! Discernment!Discernment ...Discernment, Ms Billie! Discernment!<BR/><BR/>Discernment makes the believer as wise as a serpent and as harmless as a dove, while the lack of it empowers the obnoxious and amplifies the ignorant. <BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/>MaryMaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18020964410684764286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-24210586595944045772007-10-03T19:08:00.000-05:002007-10-03T19:08:00.000-05:00BillieThe influence that Landmarkism had on Adrian...Billie<BR/><BR/>The influence that Landmarkism had on Adrian Rogers throws new light on my understanding of him. I'm sure he was not a landmarkist but was under it's influence. It could provide the understanding of the verbal slip he made back in the 60's about slavery that got him in a little hot water.<BR/>It could also explain the statement to the seminary presidents about their teaching being consistent with what the SBC convention insist. (If we say a (vegetable) has a soul then you better teach that it has a soul)<BR/><BR/>Also his insistence on inspiration of Scripture may have it's roots in Landmarkism.<BR/><BR/>Of more importance to me is this explains his disregard of Calvinism and Arminianism.<BR/><BR/>He appartently is a successionist who traces his roots back to 'Christ'. He has strong baptistic roots as you also with your references to 'true' baptism.<BR/><BR/>Billie my question to you is not are you Calvinist or Arminian but since your roots go back to Christ (which all true believers believe) have you received the baptism of the Holy Spirit?<BR/><BR/>Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?WatchingHISstoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10339668990091164802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-9647984890078221772007-10-03T18:34:00.000-05:002007-10-03T18:34:00.000-05:00Billie,I get LWF Daily Devotionals and this is fro...Billie,<BR/><BR/>I get LWF Daily Devotionals and this is from yesterday and I thought I'd share it. My father possibly has cancer and this really blessed me at time when I really needed it. Hopefully you will be blessed as well and have the added benefit of Dr. Rogers thoughts on cancer - I don't know if he's talking about cancer from his perspective of having it or it just happened that way, but I like to believe in Providence, not Coincidence:<BR/><BR/>October 2<BR/><BR/>BIBLE MEDITATION: <BR/>“For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 8:38-39<BR/><BR/>DEVOTIONAL THOUGHT: <BR/>What if you had an appointment with the doctor and found out that you had cancer? Maybe you have heard this news or heard it on behalf of a loved one. I want to tell you some things cancer cannot do. Cancer cannot shatter hope. Cancer cannot corrode faith. Cancer cannot eat away peace. Cancer cannot place a limit on eternal life. Cancer cannot quench the spirit of God and cancer cannot lessen the power of the resurrection. That’s how limited cancer is!<BR/><BR/>ACTION POINT: <BR/>Is there someone in your life that is suffering from cancer? Give them the Good News that you’ve read today. And pray that they will know the Savior.Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11805543641376648431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-18067917334645431072007-10-03T11:33:00.000-05:002007-10-03T11:33:00.000-05:00I feel the need to say this in regard to a stateme...I feel the need to say this in regard to a statement that I made on the BBC Open Forum yesterday.<BR/>The statement that God's will must have been for change in BBC because He removed Dr. Rogers.<BR/><BR/>Cancer is not from God, death is not from God but God allows it and He is never NOT in control over it, regardless of what it is. HE is not responsible for man's condition! Mankind is where we are because of rebellion and it rains on the just and the unjust, alike.<BR/>Understanding produces the peace to endure even under the stress of death because we know that God is just and faithful to keep His Word.<BR/><BR/>John Mark is right about many things and I am going to make this statement knowing that I will be accused of being condescending but God is my judge:<BR/><BR/> I pray that one day these people who are so judgemental, speaking out of a lack of understanding, will one day be blessed with the understanding of the Lord and look back and say, as I and so many others, "What a fool I was in my youth, there were some people who were older and wiser in the faith and I turned my ear away from them and would NOT listen"<BR/><BR/>All this woman wants is for God's people to come to realize that we are headed toward a Spiritual Bankrupt in our country because the Church is not producing children of trust and faith in Jesus Christ. The children are being taught to take matters into your own hands, rebel against authority, stand up for your rights, get all the power you can get, if you think you are the biggest and best; you will be the biggest and best and as a result they have become slaves and are working for Satan while attending organized religious functions without any restrictions or laws.<BR/>This woman only bleeds for people to stop the foolishness, wake up!<BR/>The, "Pay Day Some Day" that Dr. Lee preached is here, we are in it and very few people have enough passion for people and love in their hearts to get the message out.<BR/>I am not responsible to anyone other than God and I do not worry about what people think or do not think about me, but I do fear my God who I will one day come face to face with and have to an answer for the Understanding that He gave to me. I don't understand everything and I am not responsible for what I do not know, I am held responsible for what I do know. Chew me up and spit me out BBC Open Forum! BUT God's Word has never ceased to exist and He never will cease.<BR/><BR/>I write this in tears for the youth of our church, the condition of the hearts of these people who have gone out from our midst. Who is responsible for the condition they are in? Not Brother Steve, not Dr. Rogers, not P. W. the reality is US! BBC and the only thing that can turn it around is facing the Truth, repenting, understanding the consequences are just and finding joy in knowing that BBC can stand up and say, "LOOK AT US WE CAN TESTIFY THAT GOD'S WORD IS TRUE" 'KEEP THE WORD (LAWS) OF GOD AND DO NOT BEND THEM'<BR/><BR/>I've preached enough today! I just had to get it off of my chest.<BR/><BR/>I love every single person who reads what I write.Billiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03555183818157725611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-67000233865307128602007-10-02T23:32:00.000-05:002007-10-02T23:32:00.000-05:00Sure, lots of thoughts.But they're best summed up ...Sure, lots of thoughts.<BR/><BR/>But they're best summed up thusly and like so:<BR/><BR/><I>concernedSBCer said... <BR/>A fellow blogger thought this might be helpful for everyone to understand staunch supporters of Steve Gaines:<BR/><BR/>5 Points of Gainesism:<BR/>Total Disregard for Fences<BR/>Unconditional Elevation of Self<BR/>Limited Amount of Congregational<BR/>Approval<BR/>Irresistable Greenbacks<BR/>Perseverence in Running off the<BR/>Saints<BR/><BR/>10:35 PM, October 02, 2007</I><BR/><BR/>Translation: I'm so clever! I'm so smart! Don't you wish you were as righteous as me? Your preacher is so evil! I'm so pure! Hee hee hee! <BR/><BR/>I'll tell you the same thing I told Billie. <BR/><BR/>Flee from evil. Don't look back. Get as far away as you can and stay away. Their greatest joy in life is their 'cute' filth. Just think what it will be like when they lay that trash down at the feet of Jesus like it's some sort of crown.<BR/><BR/>It might go something like this:<BR/><BR/>"What did you do with your life?" "Why Lord, I told the members of Bellevue off good! I said: 5 Points of Gainesism:<BR/>Total Disregard for Fences<BR/>Unconditional Elevation of Self<BR/>Limited Amount of Congregational<BR/>Approval<BR/>Irresistable Greenbacks<BR/>Perseverence in Running off the<BR/>Saints"<BR/><BR/>I didn't spend a lot of time on evangelism or missions, but I spent hours and hours blogging about Steve Gaines.<BR/><BR/>Aren't you proud of me? <BR/><BR/>Why don't you look happy?John Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10670125206949485939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-12892069585768831722007-10-02T23:17:00.000-05:002007-10-02T23:17:00.000-05:00john mark:It just might be the only pleasure they ...<I>john mark:<BR/>It just might be the only pleasure they have in life.</I><BR/><BR/>Arminius,<BR/>Your post made me think of a comment I heard an old preacher say:<BR/><BR/>"The unsaved experience all of heaven that they ever will during their earthly lives, but the saved will experience all they ever will of hell during their life on earth."<BR/><BR/>Any thoughts?larryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12511765356493811796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-30113134674421768132007-10-02T19:46:00.000-05:002007-10-02T19:46:00.000-05:00New BBC Open Forum said... Oh, Billie. You've real...<I>New BBC Open Forum said... <BR/>Oh, Billie. You've really gone and done it now!<BR/><BR/>I'd like to urge everyone to respond with the kindness and restraint that BT's last comment doesn't in any way deserve. She's just trying to bait you. I, for one, choose to consider the source and just scroll on by.<BR/><BR/>Have a nice day, Billie! :-)</I><BR/><BR/>"Always have an answer for those who ask you the reason for the hope you have - but do this with gentleness and respect"<BR/><BR/>"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control."<BR/><BR/>"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; <B>hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy</B>; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."<BR/><BR/>"Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."<BR/><BR/>Well,<BR/>According to a blog I read you can always judge a book by it's cover. It's our job to inspect fruit and declare judgement (according to the blog). The Bible says that out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks, so it's biblical to say that behavior is a good indication of a person's heart.<BR/><BR/>Here are a few reactions to Billie's comments, and bear in mind that she's an older woman who should be treated with the respect her age deserves.<BR/><BR/>Does this sound like the kingdom of God? If not, then high tail it out of there and don't look back. <BR/><BR/><I>It's never been my (or anyone else's) purpose to "destroy someone's testimony." <BR/><BR/>Seriously lady, pipe down, crawl back under the rock you came from and leave us alone. Oh yeah, Zoloft works wonders for curing delusional tendencies. You ought to see your physician today about that.<BR/><BR/>But you are NOBODY to me BILLIE TAPP.And the reason you pulled out all the stops on that one was you can dish it out but you can't take it can you? <BR/><BR/>How do I know this? Because Ms. Billie said so!!! Unless you go to BBC and worship at the feet of Jim Jones, oh, wait, it's SG, you are in BIG trouble!!</I><BR/><BR/>Personally, I'd have to say Bellevue probably IS better than the other churches, since these people don't go there any more.<BR/><BR/>I'd honestly say, be ye glad.John Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10670125206949485939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-64728188423296842642007-10-02T17:45:00.000-05:002007-10-02T17:45:00.000-05:00John Mark said... billie,I read a few of your post...John Mark said... <BR/>billie,<BR/><BR/>I read a few of your posts on the 'good blog' today.<BR/><BR/>I really think you should leave those people alone and forget about them. I think it's admirable that you feel compassion for people who call you and everyone else at your church (essentially) a satanist, but there comes a point when it's time to move on.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Reply:<BR/>Thank you for your advice I appreciate your concern. You may be right!Billiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03555183818157725611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-3864165244750389822007-10-02T15:12:00.000-05:002007-10-02T15:12:00.000-05:00billie,I read a few of your posts on the 'good blo...billie,<BR/><BR/>I read a few of your posts on the 'good blog' today.<BR/><BR/>I really think you should leave those people alone and forget about them. I think it's admirable that you feel compassion for people who call you and everyone else at your church (essentially) a satanist, but there comes a point when it's time to move on.<BR/><BR/>You told them that they hadn't really left as long as they continue to curse BBC, but don't forget that you haven't really let them go as long as you reach out to them and pray for them. <BR/><BR/>They'll always hate your church and gripe about it every chance they get, so you should just ignore them.<BR/><BR/>Jesus didn't try to stop the rich young ruler when he walked away, and you can't stop those people either. They'll never come back, and they won't shut up either. That takes a certain measure of dignity and respect that they just don't have. Cursing you makes them feel good about themselves, so let them. It just might be the only pleasure they have in life.<BR/><BR/>They've made their decision, which is to despise your church from now until doomsday. Respect their decision, and let them enjoy the fruit of their labors.John Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10670125206949485939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-43219884221048709782007-10-02T14:20:00.000-05:002007-10-02T14:20:00.000-05:00Now I'm getting somewhere! Dr Rogers gave you this...Now I'm getting somewhere! Dr Rogers gave you this book! Did he subscribe to Landmarkism? I'm sure that this is something that you will deny. So he is neither Arminian nor Landmarkist! Wink! Wink! <BR/><BR/>Reply:<BR/>I am not a legalist but I do agree there are landmarks of the Church which can not be denied and those landmarks have always set the true Church seperate from the others who profess to follow Christ.<BR/><BR/>I believe there are those who are in the other churches which are not following the steps that Christ gave us to follow and their spiritual growth is hindered. There is only one Body of Christ but the body is not contained under one specific church building and we can not know who God is saving and working to bring all of us together. You seem to be well informed to the landmarks of a Christ centered church and just as Christ chose His disciples from those who obeyed the ordinances (landmarks) He continues today to choose from among those to become leaders in the gospel of salvation through faith in Christ. I believe you know where I am going with this! Where did John Calvin's theory originate? Was he baptized by submersion as Christ and the disciples? Salvation does not occur because of baptism but baptism follows salvation as the 1st step into the Body of Christ. To build a theology without following the 1st step is a huge red flag or can you prove that Calvin was baptized?<BR/>Maybe you can but I haven't been able to find where he even taught the importance of taking the first step. The well known Tulip fails to even mention what Jesus considered a very important step of faith!!!! How can I follow any man who has not followed the steps (ordinances) (landmarks)? To me this Biblical Truth rules out a lot of church organized groups and limits or narrows down our choices we must remember that narrow is the gate to heaven. I can go to another denomination but my Spirit looks for the landmarks and if He doesn't point them out to me I return to the same faith that God led me to follow, where I have found amazing glorious grace dwells and satisfies the hunger and thirst of my soul. No one can take away what I have or add to what I have found and I am where I am not because of John Calvin or any other man other than Jesus Christ who took the form of a man and set an example to follow. He knew that we would need those landmarks to keep us from listening to false doctrines of faith. I know you may think I am harsh making that statement but I firmly believe that false doctrines are dominating this world and I choose to be very caution, not to accept man's theology. If you can prove to me that I am completely wrong about Calvin, that he himself followed the steps of Christ and that he taught others to follow the steps of Christ then and only then will I believe that God told him to become a leader in His Church. I have this evidence against him: All of the denomination that came from his doctrine (tulip) do not practice the steps of Christ in baptism by submersion.Billiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03555183818157725611noreply@blogger.com