tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post2438562536044773994..comments2023-11-02T03:14:55.334-05:00Comments on The Bratton Report: Your point is not well takenMike Brattonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13145152348285384619noreply@blogger.comBlogger100125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-13074214373917488872007-04-27T12:52:00.000-05:002007-04-27T12:52:00.000-05:00amy,That's a perfect example of how things have ch...amy,<BR/><BR/>That's a perfect example of how things have changed. Bellevue grew under Dr. Rogers, and he didn't have any reservations about making any decisions in any area of the church. He certainly relied on the wisdom of the staff, but he would handle anything that came to his attention personally.<BR/><BR/>Steve Gaines doesn't do that from what I've seen. He seems to want to be more of a quarterback than a coach. <BR/><BR/>Karen wasn't exaggerating when she wrote about the security guards behavior and attitudes. (not all, but some) Some of them have been around for a long time, but that doesn't excuse them from having courtesy. (again, let me say this does not apply to all of them) <BR/><BR/>Dr. Gaines didn't know about it any more than Dr. Rogers did, but he does now. I'll be watching carefully to see what changes are made.solomonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16233693177785852232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-67025250579350979812007-04-27T11:05:00.000-05:002007-04-27T11:05:00.000-05:00Sol-Thanks for clarifying. I will even go so far ...Sol-<BR/><BR/>Thanks for clarifying. I will even go so far as to say IMO that incident doesn't necessarily reflect Steve Gaines. He can’t be held responsible for whoever told security to kick this girl out, unless it was him.<BR/>I have a neighbor that has a son with Autism, who is now 15. She left BBC last year, not because of what’s been going on, but for distance/time issues as her kids got busier. Any way, when her little boy was five, she got a call from a staff member in the Children’s Department saying her son was no longer welcome at Sunday School, as he required to much attention. She was very hurt and they were going to leave. I told her, in my reasonable way, I would take it to the top and give the Leadership the benefit of the doubt. She called Dr. Rogers office and told the secretary what happened. Dr. Rogers called her back that afternoon and was appalled over the situation. By that point he had already gotten to the bottom of what happened, and had put together adult volunteers to shadow her little boy so he could be more a part of Sunday School. They received, and accepted, a heart felt apology from the person that called them.<BR/> I didn’t mean to type on and on, but what you said made me think of this situation. I don’t really know how the leadership responded in this girl’s situation, but I do think they are accountable for making sure amends are made to the girl, and her family, and for setting up some guidelines so this never happens again. Hopefully, that is how they proceeded.Amyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16166259185845126345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-73557205310284780212007-04-27T09:55:00.000-05:002007-04-27T09:55:00.000-05:00Hi Amy.My point is not that the girl should not be...Hi Amy.<BR/><BR/>My point is not that the girl should not be allowed in church <B>at all</B>.<BR/><BR/>It was that the NBBCOF almost unanimously takes the side of whoever is against Gaines. It could be anyone, just as long as it make SG look bad (as if he really needs help).<BR/><BR/>The pastor's head on a platter is what's on the menu, and it looks like a lot of people will partner with anyone to get it.solomonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16233693177785852232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-56033934518466497772007-04-27T08:16:00.000-05:002007-04-27T08:16:00.000-05:00Solomon said..My oldest daughter just turned 15. S...Solomon said..<BR/><BR/><I>My oldest daughter just turned 15. She could tell you a few stories about the 'angel' that's at the heart of the latest controversy. I've taught her not to spread gossip, though.<BR/><BR/>Jesus ate with sinners because he knew their hearts, not because he liked what was on the menu. </I><BR/><BR/>Amy says- I'm missing your point. My point would be, the security guards didn't know this girl’s heart, and to <I>escort</I> her out of the sanctuary when she was quietly sitting, and not being disruptive, is wrong. Anyone seeking God should be welcome at BBC. If BBC is going to assign seats to only those they feel worthy, then they need to close up shop- because nobody deserves to be there.Amyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16166259185845126345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-21573993422695858022007-04-26T08:36:00.000-05:002007-04-26T08:36:00.000-05:00Karen said... Mike,I'm considering your last post ...<I>Karen said... <BR/>Mike,<BR/><BR/>I'm considering your last post to me and am mulling it over. I know that my position has not been affected by the blog - I came to the blog because of my point of view. </I><BR/><BR/>Mulling is always good.<BR/><BR/><I>Also, I sent you a "Captain America" video. Hope you like it.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, thank you. That video proves it's important to be able to impersonate a superhero not just on the outside, but on the inside, too.<BR/><BR/>--MikeMike Brattonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13145152348285384619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-5809093099660027602007-04-25T10:15:00.000-05:002007-04-25T10:15:00.000-05:00Mike,I'm considering your last post to me and am m...Mike,<BR/><BR/>I'm considering your last post to me and am mulling it over. I know that my position has not been affected by the blog - I came to the blog because of my point of view. <BR/><BR/>Also, I sent you a "Captain America" video. Hope you like it.<BR/><BR/>karenKarenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11805543641376648431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-30515658829106936092007-04-25T00:26:00.000-05:002007-04-25T00:26:00.000-05:00Karen said... Mike,From the emails I've received f...<I>Karen said... <BR/>Mike,<BR/><BR/>From the emails I've received from the lady that approached the Gaines' at Sweet Peppers, I have to believe that she did so in the spirit of trying to help.</I><BR/><BR/>If that's what you come away with--what you choose to believe--that's wonderful. But since we weren't there, we don't know.<BR/><BR/>There's a big difference.<BR/><BR/><I>She didn't wag a finger in his face</I><BR/><BR/>Remember, none of us were there.<BR/><BR/><I>or raise her voice to him.</I><BR/><BR/>Remember, none of us were there.<BR/><BR/><I>I just have to believe it when she says it and besides there were 2 other witnesses that watched.</I><BR/><BR/>You choose to believe it. You do not have to believe it.<BR/><BR/><I>As to whether it benefits a pastor to know he is perceived to be lacking in compassion, I guess if I had a piece of spinach in my teeth, I'd want someone to tell me. I know spinach in the teeth isn't a character flaw, but hopefully you get my point.</I><BR/><BR/>Would you prefer someone to whisper "Um, hey, you might want to look in the mirror and check your teeth," or read the website article with the title with a large red font, "Karen Willingly Invites Gingivitis! Leads Others Down Road To Periodontal Disease!"<BR/><BR/>There's a difference in the two approaches. <BR/><BR/><I>You know me well enough to know that I would rather die than critize, but oh my goodness, Mike, look at all the "mistakes of the heart" that have been made. It's not longer about the music and personal taste. Laws have been broken,</I><BR/><BR/>Which ones? And have the authorities been called yet?<BR/><BR/><I>members have been yelled at, villified, handcuffed, etc.</I><BR/><BR/>Members--plural--are being handcuffed? Things have changed since I moved, I guess!<BR/><BR/>And as for vilification, the most active offenders in that area circulate in places like the Closed Forum, "Saving Bellevue," IDC, ACT, and the like. Do you have any outrage for them, or have you allowed your focus to be steered away from the offenses committed in the very forum you frequent?<BR/><BR/><I>What will Steve Gaines have to do before you see that he's taking Bellevue down quick, fast and in a hurry?</I><BR/><BR/>Oh, I have a list--want to see some of what's on it? If he does any of the following...<BR/><BR/>1) Insists that he knows whether or not someone is a Christian (beyond that person's own statements)<BR/><BR/>2) Calls anyone a demon or Antichrist (who isn't, obviously, a demon or the Antichrist)<BR/><BR/>3) Makes death threats or otherwise engages in terroristic behavior<BR/><BR/>...then he'll obviously be doing things to try and "take Bellevue down."<BR/><BR/>Of course, there are people who unrepentently engage in such behavior right now. None of them are named Steve Gaines; most of them won't sign their names to their behavior.<BR/><BR/><I>People that I don't even know have written me from Gardendale, apologizing for "pawning him off" on BBC. Those are their emailed words, Mike. Not mine. </I><BR/><BR/>You know, I believe that may have been one of the reasons God led my family and me down here to the Birmingham area. I get to talk with people face-to-face about Pastor Gaines, with virtually all their comments being unsolicited ones--all I have to do is mention Bellevue. And I've never told them my opinion of Pastor Gaines one way or another.<BR/><BR/>Whether they're pastors or laity, their comments regarding Pastor Gaines are universally positive--the term "glowing" can even be used.<BR/><BR/>Have you stopped to consider you might be getting those e-mails <B>because</B> of the Forum you frequent and the position you voice?<BR/><BR/><I>There has been bad behavior on all sides of these issues and I know I've offended some folks with my words so for that, I am sorry, but I will not shut up until God tells me to. I can't - Bellevue is too precious to let go yet.</I><BR/><BR/>Unlike how your Forum friends view me, I wouldn't dream of asking you--or anyone else--to "shut up." I do, however, encourage you to consider how the online company you keep might be affecting your point of view.<BR/><BR/>--MikeMike Brattonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13145152348285384619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-74634960415372045112007-04-24T19:47:00.000-05:002007-04-24T19:47:00.000-05:00My oldest daughter just turned 15. She could tell ...My oldest daughter just turned 15. She could tell you a few stories about the 'angel' that's at the heart of the latest controversy. I've taught her not to spread gossip, though.<BR/><BR/>Jesus ate with sinners because he knew their hearts, not because he liked what was on the menu.solomonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16233693177785852232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-68504342325491041932007-04-24T16:54:00.000-05:002007-04-24T16:54:00.000-05:00Mike,From the emails I've received from the lady t...Mike,<BR/><BR/>From the emails I've received from the lady that approached the Gaines' at Sweet Peppers, I have to believe that she did so in the spirit of trying to help. She didn't wag a finger in his face or raise her voice to him. I just have to believe it when she says it and besides there were 2 other witnesses that watched.<BR/><BR/>As to whether it benefits a pastor to know he is perceived to be lacking in compassion, I guess if I had a piece of spinach in my teeth, I'd want someone to tell me. I know spinach in the teeth isn't a character flaw, but hopefully you get my point.<BR/><BR/>You know me well enough to know that I would rather die than critize, but oh my goodness, Mike, look at all the "mistakes of the heart" that have been made. It's not longer about the music and personal taste. Laws have been broken, members have been yelled at, villified, handcuffed, etc. What will Steve Gaines have to do before you see that he's taking Bellevue down quick, fast and in a hurry? People that I don't even know have written me from Gardendale, apologizing for "pawning him off" on BBC. Those are their emailed words, Mike. Not mine. <BR/><BR/>There has been bad behavior on all sides of these issues and I know I've offended some folks with my words so for that, I am sorry, but I will not shut up until God tells me to. I can't - Bellevue is too precious to let go yet.<BR/><BR/>karenKarenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11805543641376648431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-11870831968190723032007-04-24T15:48:00.000-05:002007-04-24T15:48:00.000-05:00Karen said... bepatient,It's not really apples and...<I>Karen said... <BR/>bepatient,<BR/><BR/>It's not really apples and oranges, is it? The person that approached Steve Gaines on Sunday night at Sweet Peppers did so out of concern for a 15 yr old girl. The person didn't come to Steve in a confrontational way - just a member bringing a concern to her pastor.</I><BR/><BR/>Karen, wouldn't you agree that unless you're that person, you really can't say for sure what that person's motive was?<BR/><BR/><I>And I posted about the way that Dr. Rogers was always so approachable with the membership - I think Steve Gaines is lacking in that area.</I><BR/><BR/>I have never known Pastor Gaines not to be approachable; the first in-depth conversation we ever had was after my son practically tackled him. Though I knew Pastor Rogers longer, and thus better, than I know Pastor Gaines at this point in life, I cannot say that I've seen much difference in their levels of congeniality.<BR/><BR/><I>To me, that doesn't demonize him, but it shows lack of compassion. This is, of course, just my opinion, so don't beat me up too bad, but I know you won't because we can agree to disagree.</I><BR/><BR/>Does it <B>benefit</B> a pastor to try and hang a sign around his neck that reads "Lack Of Compassion"?<BR/><BR/>Think about it.<BR/><BR/><I>Mike,<BR/><BR/>I wrote that little blurb about "voodoo".</I><BR/><BR/>I know you did. Which was why I didn't ascribe authorship to any of the quotes.<BR/><BR/><I>I am sorry that it's come to that for me, but I'm out of descriptive words on how I feel people have been changed since Steve Gaines came to Bellevue. In my question yesterday about whether Steve had used some sort of voodoo or had these people just been this way and when Steve came, the attitudes with which people have been villified have just now come out? I never got a definitive answer to that one. I just feel like some people have been visited by aliens or been body snatched or gone through a stepford process because I don't recognize specific choir members, deacons or ushers anymore. People I've loved for years have turned vicious due their views on the issues plaguing BBC (on both sides, admittedly) and I don't know if it's because of Steve or in spite of Steve.</I><BR/><BR/>I can give you an answer if you'd like one, and Pastor Gaines is only a circumstantial part of that answer. Ready?<BR/><BR/>As Pastor Rogers so often said, we find out what's inside ourselves, and inside others, when jostled. There's been a lot of jostling going on at Bellevue over the past year or so--which is not always a bad thing. The jostling has revealed in some a mindset that leads to making death threats and blackmail threats, comparing people to Satan and the Antichrist, and engaging in other bilious commentary and behavior.<BR/><BR/>Please don't let what's in them jostle out onto you. It's corrosive.<BR/><BR/>--MikeMike Brattonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13145152348285384619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-87931635166074060612007-04-24T14:35:00.000-05:002007-04-24T14:35:00.000-05:00Karen, From the original story that was posted, it...Karen, <BR/><BR/>From the original story that was posted, it did not appear he was approached in a non-confrontational way. The reaction portrayed in that story goes against EVERY other story I have heard of him being approached in public by people. <BR/><BR/>And after reading Brandon's story about G. Hauss on there I am leery of the way any story is presented by the NBBCOF bloggers. I heard the story from him when the first incident happened and then again a few minutes after he talked to him on the phone. <BR/>Although technically factual, it is easy to skew the facts to cater to the audience you are speaking to. Brandon did not lie to anyone, but the stories came out in two very different ways even when told by the same person.Jessicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01867337846220103344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-25120242142146053732007-04-24T12:25:00.000-05:002007-04-24T12:25:00.000-05:00Mike Bratton Said...You'll have to shave, though; ...Mike Bratton Said...<BR/><BR/><I>You'll have to shave, though; there's no facial hair on the Thanagarians. </I><BR/><BR/>I'm adopted. (I really am actually) Besides I seem to recall being told I'd still be swarthy, even if I shaved.<BR/><BR/>Could someone point me to (or post) the Reader's Digest version of the encounter at Sweet Peppers? I must have missed something. Maybe I just didn;t wade through enough...um, stuff.SteveSpencer824https://www.blogger.com/profile/01074902663353575262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-87167878722060526372007-04-24T11:55:00.000-05:002007-04-24T11:55:00.000-05:00From NBBCOF - This forum was created to provide a ...From NBBCOF - <I>This forum was created to provide a place where those who are seriously concerned about the issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church can come to comment and exchange ideas in a respectful, Christian spirit. </I><BR/><BR/>I have to assume by their discussions that they are either "seriously concerned about" Jamie Parker's smile and Mark Dougharty's height, OR NOT "exchanging ideas in a respectful, Christian spirit".<BR/><BR/>One of the quotes about JP's teeth was that you shouldn't trust someone that smiles too much. I refuse to go and see what they've written about MD's height. However, I have this to say to them about MD....Mt 6:27 "Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?". If Mark doesn't worry about it, neither should they!!Billy Murray Jrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10296601891483840758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-67242294007870337952007-04-24T11:24:00.000-05:002007-04-24T11:24:00.000-05:00bepatient,It's not really apples and oranges, is i...bepatient,<BR/><BR/>It's not really apples and oranges, is it? The person that approached Steve Gaines on Sunday night at Sweet Peppers did so out of concern for a 15 yr old girl. The person didn't come to Steve in a confrontational way - just a member bringing a concern to her pastor. And I posted about the way that Dr. Rogers was always so approachable with the membership - I think Steve Gaines is lacking in that area. To me, that doesn't demonize him, but it shows lack of compassion. This is, of course, just my opinion, so don't beat me up too bad, but I know you won't because we can agree to disagree.<BR/><BR/>Mike,<BR/><BR/>I wrote that little blurb about "voodoo". I am sorry that it's come to that for me, but I'm out of descriptive words on how I feel people have been changed since Steve Gaines came to Bellevue. In my question yesterday about whether Steve had used some sort of voodoo or had these people just been this way and when Steve came, the attitudes with which people have been villified have just now come out? I never got a definitive answer to that one. I just feel like some people have been visited by aliens or been body snatched or gone through a stepford process because I don't recognize specific choir members, deacons or ushers anymore. People I've loved for years have turned vicious due their views on the issues plaguing BBC (on both sides, admittedly) and I don't know if it's because of Steve or in spite of Steve.<BR/><BR/>karenKarenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11805543641376648431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-38430801008718684942007-04-24T10:17:00.000-05:002007-04-24T10:17:00.000-05:00I also found it intriguing how they compared that ...I also found it intriguing how they compared that encounter with the times they had seen Dr. Rogers out-<BR/><BR/>Do they really not see that they way in which you approach someone matters?<BR/><BR/>Dr. Rogers still may have responded differently in the same situation, but those stories are apples and oranges.Jessicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01867337846220103344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-11220274388011003422007-04-24T09:32:00.000-05:002007-04-24T09:32:00.000-05:00LegalBeagle said... Interesting... The "clos...<I>LegalBeagle said...<BR/><BR/> Interesting...<BR/><BR/> The "closed forum" folks are making jokes about M.D.'s height and that is apparently acceptable.<BR/><BR/> They are also flat out calling Pastor Gaines a demon, which is stunningly also apparently acceptable. </I><BR/><BR/>I noticed that very thing... and actually typed out a rather long, rather scathing reply, full of flowy big words and accusations.<BR/><BR/>And when I failed to enter the word verification correctly, I re-read.. and thought to myself... This makes me sound just like them. So I deleted it. I won't say that it didn't feel good to type it out, though!!!<BR/><BR/>Oh... and apparently it is now OK to verbally accost Steve and Donna Gaines while they are out to dinner!!! The madness reaches a new level.SpringerSpanielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04938621793399675364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-41652924736756277262007-04-23T22:40:00.000-05:002007-04-23T22:40:00.000-05:00Mike said...How about we agree to rendezvous there...Mike said...<BR/><I>How about we agree to rendezvous there?</I><BR/><BR/>Sounds like a plan! Thanks for an interesting, civil, and thought provoking discussion. I guess we just proved it <I>can</I> be done!<BR/><BR/>Your friend and mine,<BR/>"junk" (aka The Flash) :)Junksterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422651080120306816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-61880196578951753412007-04-23T22:14:00.000-05:002007-04-23T22:14:00.000-05:00The apostle John said...But if we walk in the ligh...The apostle John said...<BR/><B>But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.</B><BR/><BR/>An angry NBBCOFer said...<BR/><I>I am glad I saw the light early and separated myself from it.</I><BR/><BR/>How's that for an ironic slip of the 'tongue'?solomonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16233693177785852232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-17038245741072190442007-04-23T22:08:00.000-05:002007-04-23T22:08:00.000-05:00Whatever the NBBCOF does or says, we can't ever lo...Whatever the NBBCOF does or says, we can't ever lose sight that many of them are our brothers and sisters in Christ and need our prayers. The way they act sometimes just shows where they are spiritually. (I certainly wasn't born full grown.)<BR/><BR/>I'd advise everyone to take some time away from it if you're not. The exposure to so much anger and resentment could lead you into sin. I fell into that snare, and I don't want anyone else to get caught.<BR/><BR/>BTW, does it seem strange to anyone else that the PD conspirators aren't around to stir the pot on days like today when it's already boiling?solomonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16233693177785852232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-45249816882932192502007-04-23T17:21:00.000-05:002007-04-23T17:21:00.000-05:00Oh my,apparently, they are dancing barefoot over a...Oh my,apparently, they are dancing barefoot over at the closed forum, atop that smiling music-dude's hairpiece; not only that, they baked fish without ventilating the kitchen; and it is rumored they are behind the missing honeybees.David Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00558679145059858491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-19690950410614198022007-04-23T17:08:00.000-05:002007-04-23T17:08:00.000-05:00Who'd be so crude as to compare you guys to Hitler...Who'd be so crude as to compare you guys to Hitler? The Apple Dumpling Gang, however--I concur.David Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00558679145059858491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-7619993927251549252007-04-23T16:59:00.000-05:002007-04-23T16:59:00.000-05:00Interesting...The "closed forum" folks are making ...Interesting...<BR/><BR/>The "closed forum" folks are making jokes about M.D.'s height and that is apparently acceptable.<BR/><BR/>They are also flat out calling Pastor Gaines a demon, which is stunningly also apparently acceptable.Barnabashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02323552383958480905noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-1326805894749506622007-04-23T16:57:00.000-05:002007-04-23T16:57:00.000-05:00I try to steer clear of the Closed forum but occas...I try to steer clear of the Closed forum but occasionally I pop in to see what is going on and I skimmed through and saw a comment that SG is the "head demon". <BR/><BR/>Where are all the discerning Christians who pick apart every word and gesture by SG and friends but don't say a word about this type of comment! How is this even remotely appropriate?Jessicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01867337846220103344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-78649046021195693222007-04-23T16:35:00.000-05:002007-04-23T16:35:00.000-05:00MJM, They have special "superhero" spandex so we c...MJM, <BR/><BR/>They have special "superhero" spandex so we can look like that when we put it on! <BR/><BR/>I will be wearing it under all my clothes once I get mine!Jessicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01867337846220103344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33993370.post-23304343137135284632007-04-23T15:59:00.000-05:002007-04-23T15:59:00.000-05:00Just curious ... but Spandex is not mandatory for ...Just curious ... but Spandex is not mandatory for this clique, is it?Miriam Wilmothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03977271688329151671noreply@blogger.com